Dear Newsgroup ~
Mr. Farmerie has suggested that I may have incorrectly "sourced" the
identification of Robert Holand, Bastard of Exeter, as an illegitimate
son of John Holand (died 1447), 2nd Duke of Exeter, in my book,
Plantagenet Ancestry. Certainly, Robert Holand being "Bastard of
Exeter" was the son of a titled Duke of Exeter. A look at the
chronology of this family tells us that Robert Holand is correctly
placed as the son of John Holand, 2nd Duke of Exeter.
I often employ an 85 year rule of thumb for three generations. This
is nothing set in stone. Rather, I use it as a rough measuring stick
that helps check chronology between generations.
In this instance, we have a proven great-grandson of Robert Holand,
namely Laurence Kendall, of Withiel, near Bodmin, Cornwall. Examining
Laurence Kendall's dates of birth and marriage should provide us with
rough estimates of dates of birth and marriage for Robert Holand. In
turn, this should help us establish the probable parentage of Robert
Holand.
I find that Laurence Kendall first surfaces in the records in 1532 and
again in 1535 [see Documents #1 and 2 below]. In both instances,
these dates are prior to Laurence's known marriage and during his
father, Walter Kendall's lifetime. As such, we may assume Laurence
was about 1532, or born about 1521. If we subtract 85 years from
1521, we should get a fairly reliable estimate of when Robert Holand
was born.
1521 less 85 equals 1426.
If so, the chronology suggests that Robert Holand was the illegitimate
son of John Holand (died 1447), 2nd Duke of Exeter.
Next, John Blythe Dobson has an excellent website devoted to the
ancestry of the immigrant, Oliver Mainwaring, of New London,
Connecticut. I corresponded with Mr. Blythe prior to the publication
of my book. The address for Mr. Dobson's website is very long:
http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:nT ... r%22&hl=en
Mr. Dobson shows that Lawrence Kendall and his wife, Katherine Mundy,
were married about 1540. He gives the following information regarding
their marriage date:
"About 1540, in expectation of her marriage, her uncle, Thomas Mundy
alias Wandsworth, Prior of Bodmin, arranged for her and her future
husband to be granted the manor of Withiel, with the advowson of the
church, for ninety-nine years. This was obtained through a promise to
the brethren of a large sum of money, which they never received." END
OP QUOTE.
Sir John Maclean in his excellent multi-volume set, The Parochial and
Family History of the Deanery of Trigg Minor, 1 (1876): 136 and 269
confirms Laurence Kendall's marriage to Katherine Mundy took place
soon after 20 September 1537:
"The prior and convent by deed indented, under the conventual seal,
dated 20th Sept. anno regni Regis 29 Hen. VIII. granted the whole
manor of Withiel and the advowson of the church, together with the
common fishing throughout the whole water of Aleyn and Eyle, with all
the appurtenances, to Lawrence Kendall and Katheryn Monday, which the
same Lawrence should marry, their heirs and assigns, for the term of
99 years. Roll 5, No. 81 - Particulars for leases." END OF QUOTE
So, we have an approximate marriage date of 1537/40 for Lawrence
Kendall. If we subtract 85 years from 1537/40, we should get an
approximate estimate of Robert Holand's date of marriage to his wife,
Margaret:
1537/40 less 85 equals 1452/55
We know that Robert Holand was married to his wife, Margaret, in or
before 1458, so the estimated marriage fits well with the information
we have about Robert Holand's life. Again, a marriage date of 1452/55
suggests that Robert Holand was the illegitimate son of John Holand,
2nd Duke of Exeter. Chronologically, it would be extremely unlikely
for Robert Holand to be a son of Henry Holand, 3rd Duke of Exeter,
born in 1430.
I might add that the 85 year rule of thumb I employ is just that, a
rule of thumb. Individual cases can and do vary. When other records
are not available, chronology can help point the way to the desired
solution.
Special thanks go to John Blythe Dobson for generously sharing his
research findings on the Holand and Kendall families with me.
Collegiality is the key to solving the longstanding genealogical
puzzles of the past.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue
Cornwall Record Office: Arundell, Tywardreath Priory Archive
Document #1:
Reference: ART/3/118
Creation dates: 1535, 8th Feb (26 Hen VIII)
Scope and Content
Grant of tithes, for term of 60 years
Thomas Colyns, Prior of Tywardreth = (1)
Walter Kendale, esquire, and Laurence Kendale his son = (2)-(3)
(1) to (2)-(3) to farm, all their tithe corn, 'as well of whete,
otyes,
barly, rye, bere, pesyn, benys, selpepesyn and all oder corn and
graynes' from the parish [sic] of Treneglos and Warbystow, belonging
to
the prior and convent; for term of 60 years, rent £8 yearly at 2
terms.
Signatures (faint) of (2)-(3).
[No witnesses]
Seals, endorsements, etc.: Seal, and drawing of the other seal,
presumably of (2)-(3).
Selected place-names, etc.: [Treneglos; Fentrigan manor]
Document #2:
Reference: ART/3/153
Creation dates: 1532, 20th Sep (24 Hen VIII); at Trywardreth
chapter-house
Archival History
[This originally had pencil number '320', in error for '220' (there is
no '320' in the Tywardreath series).]
Scope and Content
Grant of annuity and sustenance
Thomas Colyns, Prior of Trywardreth = (1)
Laurence Kendale, son of Walter Kendale = (2)
(1) and the convent to (2), for £10 paid to them by Walter Kendale, of
an annuity of 20s, issuing from the priory's lands in Cornwall,
payable
at 4 terms; also sufficient food and drink within their monastery, and
an apartment in a suitable chamber (cubiculum in camera convenienti)
within the monastery; for term of (2)'s life, when he shall wish to
accept it.
[No witnesses]
Seals, endorsements, etc.: Seal of (1).
Family of Robert Holand, Bastard of Exeter
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Family of Robert Holand, Bastard of Exeter
Douglas Richardson wrote:
A reasonable, even pedestrian supposition.
Do we really have proof, in hand, that Laurence was son of Walter
Kendall, Walter son of John Kendall by Jane Holand, daughter of Robert?
(Not that I doubt it, but we are talking about "proven".) As to
Laurence being son of Walter, that I documented in TAG, indirectly (his
son Nicholas being naming Nicholas, son of Walter as avunculo meo), and,
unsurprisingly, A2A reveals more direct documentation. For Walter being
son of John, I don't doubt it, but have not done the legwork to confirm
Vivian. For his mother being Joan, and she daughter of Robert, Vivian
says this based of "Coll. of Arms" but this is also cited for Robert
being son of Henry, so must be viewed with skepticism. Likewise
Sandford cites "Visit. Devon & Corn." for the marriage, but I have been
unable to identify which precise document is meant here.
Huh?
"Suggests". Keep in mind - I was not questioning that Robert was likely
son of John - a conclusion obvious from the fact that he was more a
contemporary of, than a generation later than, his attributed "father"
Duke Henry.
It looks like the appropriate tense is "had". This is a Google archive
of a defunct page.
Unfortunately, as an archive of a dead page, the references no longer link.
The conditions of this grant are best understood in the context of what
Thomas Mundy was doing with the properties of the Bodmin Priory -
granting it right and left to various family members (as 99-year
leases), apparently both to protect his own and to reduce its value to
Henry VIII, who hadn't gotten around to having it confiscated yet. (I
vaguely see it as, "well, if Henry is going to take it anyhow, my
favoriates have just as much right to benefit from it his".) Mundy
ended up attainted for smuggling the (arm, I think it was) bone of a
martyred Catholic priest into the country. Interesting reading, there
being a lot of writing on these events in the Devon and Cornwall
antiquarian periodicals of the last century, including studies of the
related families, although of the quality you would expect for the time.
That being said, unless he has found something I haven't, I am not
entirely convinced that the parentage he shows for Katherine "Mundy" is
accurate. Apply your 85-year rule to the Shaa-Brown-Mundy-Kendall
descent, and you are in for a surprise. Using the well-documented
dates, the remaining pedigree becomes quite troublesome.
We have an approximate marriage date of between 1537 (the grant
immediately prior to marriage) and 1549 (Mundy's will) - "about 1540" is
Mr. Dobson's approximation, apparently not anything from the primary
record independent of Maclean's 1537 document.
Red herring - that option has already been dismissed from reasonable
consideration.
Which is EXACTLY the point I was trying to make - a reasonable
conclusion based on chronology is NOT the same as a documented descent.
I am not saying that this is not the most likely solution. Since the
time I found the document in which Robert granted rights at Manorbier
and Penally to his tennants that had previously been granted them by
Henry, (note that they were not witnessing the grant by Henry to Robert,
but witnessing to the fact that, at some undisclosed time in the past,
this grant had taken place), I was convinced that this would likely
prove to be the case. I had since found one secondary reference that
made the relation explicit, but citing a document at Kew which seemed
unlikely to have given the relationship, and hence (until I next get to
Kew) I set it aside as possibly the author's interpolation - again, a
reasonable guess, but that is not proof.
Fortunately, all of this supposing and probabilitizing is now rendered
moot (I wish I could say more).
Please bear this in mind the next time someone asks you which, among a
list of references, provided the specific evidence for a particular
connection.
taf
Certainly, Robert Holand being "Bastard of
Exeter" was the son of a titled Duke of Exeter. A look at the
chronology of this family tells us that Robert Holand is correctly
placed as the son of John Holand, 2nd Duke of Exeter.
A reasonable, even pedestrian supposition.
In this instance, we have a proven great-grandson of Robert Holand,
namely Laurence Kendall, of Withiel, near Bodmin, Cornwall.
Do we really have proof, in hand, that Laurence was son of Walter
Kendall, Walter son of John Kendall by Jane Holand, daughter of Robert?
(Not that I doubt it, but we are talking about "proven".) As to
Laurence being son of Walter, that I documented in TAG, indirectly (his
son Nicholas being naming Nicholas, son of Walter as avunculo meo), and,
unsurprisingly, A2A reveals more direct documentation. For Walter being
son of John, I don't doubt it, but have not done the legwork to confirm
Vivian. For his mother being Joan, and she daughter of Robert, Vivian
says this based of "Coll. of Arms" but this is also cited for Robert
being son of Henry, so must be viewed with skepticism. Likewise
Sandford cites "Visit. Devon & Corn." for the marriage, but I have been
unable to identify which precise document is meant here.
I find that Laurence Kendall first surfaces in the records in 1532 and
again in 1535 [see Documents #1 and 2 below]. In both instances,
these dates are prior to Laurence's known marriage and during his
father, Walter Kendall's lifetime. As such, we may assume Laurence
was about 1532, or born about 1521.
Huh?
If so, the chronology suggests that Robert Holand was the illegitimate
son of John Holand (died 1447), 2nd Duke of Exeter.
"Suggests". Keep in mind - I was not questioning that Robert was likely
son of John - a conclusion obvious from the fact that he was more a
contemporary of, than a generation later than, his attributed "father"
Duke Henry.
Next, John Blythe Dobson has an excellent website devoted to the
It looks like the appropriate tense is "had". This is a Google archive
of a defunct page.
ancestry of the immigrant, Oliver Mainwaring, of New London,
Connecticut. I corresponded with Mr. Blythe prior to the publication
of my book. The address for Mr. Dobson's website is very long:
http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:nT ... r%22&hl=en
Unfortunately, as an archive of a dead page, the references no longer link.
Mr. Dobson shows that Lawrence Kendall and his wife, Katherine Mundy,
were married about 1540. He gives the following information regarding
their marriage date:
"About 1540, in expectation of her marriage, her uncle, Thomas Mundy
alias Wandsworth, Prior of Bodmin, arranged for her and her future
husband to be granted the manor of Withiel, with the advowson of the
church, for ninety-nine years. This was obtained through a promise to
the brethren of a large sum of money, which they never received." END
OP QUOTE.
The conditions of this grant are best understood in the context of what
Thomas Mundy was doing with the properties of the Bodmin Priory -
granting it right and left to various family members (as 99-year
leases), apparently both to protect his own and to reduce its value to
Henry VIII, who hadn't gotten around to having it confiscated yet. (I
vaguely see it as, "well, if Henry is going to take it anyhow, my
favoriates have just as much right to benefit from it his".) Mundy
ended up attainted for smuggling the (arm, I think it was) bone of a
martyred Catholic priest into the country. Interesting reading, there
being a lot of writing on these events in the Devon and Cornwall
antiquarian periodicals of the last century, including studies of the
related families, although of the quality you would expect for the time.
That being said, unless he has found something I haven't, I am not
entirely convinced that the parentage he shows for Katherine "Mundy" is
accurate. Apply your 85-year rule to the Shaa-Brown-Mundy-Kendall
descent, and you are in for a surprise. Using the well-documented
dates, the remaining pedigree becomes quite troublesome.
So, we have an approximate marriage date of 1537/40 for Lawrence
Kendall.
We have an approximate marriage date of between 1537 (the grant
immediately prior to marriage) and 1549 (Mundy's will) - "about 1540" is
Mr. Dobson's approximation, apparently not anything from the primary
record independent of Maclean's 1537 document.
Chronologically, it would be extremely unlikely
for Robert Holand to be a son of Henry Holand, 3rd Duke of Exeter,
born in 1430.
Red herring - that option has already been dismissed from reasonable
consideration.
I might add that the 85 year rule of thumb I employ is just that, a
rule of thumb. Individual cases can and do vary.
Which is EXACTLY the point I was trying to make - a reasonable
conclusion based on chronology is NOT the same as a documented descent.
I am not saying that this is not the most likely solution. Since the
time I found the document in which Robert granted rights at Manorbier
and Penally to his tennants that had previously been granted them by
Henry, (note that they were not witnessing the grant by Henry to Robert,
but witnessing to the fact that, at some undisclosed time in the past,
this grant had taken place), I was convinced that this would likely
prove to be the case. I had since found one secondary reference that
made the relation explicit, but citing a document at Kew which seemed
unlikely to have given the relationship, and hence (until I next get to
Kew) I set it aside as possibly the author's interpolation - again, a
reasonable guess, but that is not proof.
Fortunately, all of this supposing and probabilitizing is now rendered
moot (I wish I could say more).
Special thanks go to John Blythe Dobson for generously sharing his
research findings on the Holand and Kendall families with me.
Collegiality is the key to solving the longstanding genealogical
puzzles of the past.
Please bear this in mind the next time someone asks you which, among a
list of references, provided the specific evidence for a particular
connection.
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Family of Robert Holand, Bastard of Exeter
Todd, Douglas, et al
The ancestry of Oliver Mainwaring may now be viewed at THIS link and the references do work
http://cybrary.uwinnipeg.ca/people/dobs ... aring.html
Will Johnson
"> ancestry of the immigrant, Oliver Mainwaring, of New London,
Unfortunately, as an archive of a dead page, the references no longer link."
The ancestry of Oliver Mainwaring may now be viewed at THIS link and the references do work
http://cybrary.uwinnipeg.ca/people/dobs ... aring.html
Will Johnson
"> ancestry of the immigrant, Oliver Mainwaring, of New London,
Connecticut. I corresponded with Mr. Blythe prior to the publication
of my book. The address for Mr. Dobson's website is very long:
http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:nT ... r%22&hl=en
Unfortunately, as an archive of a dead page, the references no longer link."
-
Martin Reboul
Re: Family of Robert Holand, Bastard of Exeter
"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:5cf47a19.0411240236.47700dbb@posting.google.com...
I know of another Bastard of Exeter, who allegedly was personally responsible
for chopping off the head of Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury following the
battle of Wakefield in 1460. He in turn was captured by Salisbury's son,
Richard Neville Earl of Warwick , and summarily executed after Northampton. Was
this another son of John Holland, or is there some confusion here?
I mentioned seeing John Holland's sinister and imposing effigy at the Tower
recently - my great interest being his son Henry, duke of Exeter, who fought at
Barnet. It looks as if Duke John was quite voracious and fertile, three wives on
his tomb with him, and he obviously didn't stop there! An ugly brute too -
amazing what power, cash and a Dukedom can do for one...
Any info about the Holland (or Holand - they seem to have spelt it both ways?)
family of that era would be most welcome?
Cheers
Martin
news:5cf47a19.0411240236.47700dbb@posting.google.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~
Mr. Farmerie has suggested that I may have incorrectly "sourced" the
identification of Robert Holand, Bastard of Exeter, as an illegitimate
son of John Holand (died 1447), 2nd Duke of Exeter, in my book,
Plantagenet Ancestry. Certainly, Robert Holand being "Bastard of
Exeter" was the son of a titled Duke of Exeter. A look at the
chronology of this family tells us that Robert Holand is correctly
placed as the son of John Holand, 2nd Duke of Exeter.
I know of another Bastard of Exeter, who allegedly was personally responsible
for chopping off the head of Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury following the
battle of Wakefield in 1460. He in turn was captured by Salisbury's son,
Richard Neville Earl of Warwick , and summarily executed after Northampton. Was
this another son of John Holland, or is there some confusion here?
I mentioned seeing John Holland's sinister and imposing effigy at the Tower
recently - my great interest being his son Henry, duke of Exeter, who fought at
Barnet. It looks as if Duke John was quite voracious and fertile, three wives on
his tomb with him, and he obviously didn't stop there! An ugly brute too -
amazing what power, cash and a Dukedom can do for one...
Any info about the Holland (or Holand - they seem to have spelt it both ways?)
family of that era would be most welcome?
Cheers
Martin
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Family of Robert Holand, Bastard of Exeter
Martin Reboul wrote:
This was Thomas Holand, Bastard of Exeter. He and William Holand,
Bastard of Exeter, unlike Robert, are specifically named as sons by the
will of Duke John. Oddly, there is apparently at least one contemporary
reference to "both bastards of Exeter" (excluding them from a general
pardon), which might at first suggest that only two out of the three
were active in the politics/warfare of the time, but this is not the
case - Robert was captured along with Duke Henry at one point, but they
escaped, while William was attainted for raising rebelion in the
southwest, and you have already described Thomas' role. I have come to
think that Stow, in stating in his chronicle that two were killed at
Towton, was misinformed (as he was about "Edward, Duke of Exeter" being
killed there), and that none of the Bastards died at Towton. Rather
that Thomas was executed a couple of weeks before, Robert killed in a
skermish the day before, and William survived the battle.
taf
I know of another Bastard of Exeter, who allegedly was personally responsible
for chopping off the head of Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury following the
battle of Wakefield in 1460. He in turn was captured by Salisbury's son,
Richard Neville Earl of Warwick , and summarily executed after Northampton. Was
this another son of John Holland, or is there some confusion here?
This was Thomas Holand, Bastard of Exeter. He and William Holand,
Bastard of Exeter, unlike Robert, are specifically named as sons by the
will of Duke John. Oddly, there is apparently at least one contemporary
reference to "both bastards of Exeter" (excluding them from a general
pardon), which might at first suggest that only two out of the three
were active in the politics/warfare of the time, but this is not the
case - Robert was captured along with Duke Henry at one point, but they
escaped, while William was attainted for raising rebelion in the
southwest, and you have already described Thomas' role. I have come to
think that Stow, in stating in his chronicle that two were killed at
Towton, was misinformed (as he was about "Edward, Duke of Exeter" being
killed there), and that none of the Bastards died at Towton. Rather
that Thomas was executed a couple of weeks before, Robert killed in a
skermish the day before, and William survived the battle.
taf
-
Martin Reboul
Re: Family of Robert Holand, Bastard of Exeter
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:41a63f61@news.ColoState.EDU...
Thanks for that Todd... another name to add! Henry Holand (D of E) was at
Towton, one of the few Lancastrians of rank who managed to escape after the
battle. He seems to have been an extraordinarily hot-tempered and nasty fellow
even by the standards of his day, but I suppose he had quite a lot to be annoyed
about?
The Milanese ambassador described him as "cruel and fierce", and he single
handedly managed to scupper at least one promising peace conference in London. I
have a suspicion he might also have been behind the attempted ambush of Richard
Neville at Westminster in Nov 1458, which he narrowly escaped (they must have
hated each others guts!).
I have searched high and low for a picture of Henry, but nothing has ever turned
up. I have to say, the Holands in the mid-15thC seem to have been a pretty rough
bunch, always in or causing trouble, yet not the sharpest tools in the box when
it cam,e to surviving. Tough, uncompromising, arrogant, vengeful, unforgiving,
proud, foul-tempered and violent.... that seems to be all that was recorded?
Recklessly brave even so... if they looked at all like their dad, Duke John,
they must have been extremely intimidating!
Cheers
Martin
news:41a63f61@news.ColoState.EDU...
Martin Reboul wrote:
I know of another Bastard of Exeter, who allegedly was personally
responsible
for chopping off the head of Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury following
the
battle of Wakefield in 1460. He in turn was captured by Salisbury's son,
Richard Neville Earl of Warwick , and summarily executed after Northampton.
Was
this another son of John Holland, or is there some confusion here?
This was Thomas Holand, Bastard of Exeter. He and William Holand,
Bastard of Exeter, unlike Robert, are specifically named as sons by the
will of Duke John. Oddly, there is apparently at least one contemporary
reference to "both bastards of Exeter" (excluding them from a general
pardon), which might at first suggest that only two out of the three
were active in the politics/warfare of the time, but this is not the
case - Robert was captured along with Duke Henry at one point, but they
escaped, while William was attainted for raising rebelion in the
southwest, and you have already described Thomas' role. I have come to
think that Stow, in stating in his chronicle that two were killed at
Towton, was misinformed (as he was about "Edward, Duke of Exeter" being
killed there), and that none of the Bastards died at Towton. Rather
that Thomas was executed a couple of weeks before, Robert killed in a
skermish the day before, and William survived the battle.
Thanks for that Todd... another name to add! Henry Holand (D of E) was at
Towton, one of the few Lancastrians of rank who managed to escape after the
battle. He seems to have been an extraordinarily hot-tempered and nasty fellow
even by the standards of his day, but I suppose he had quite a lot to be annoyed
about?
The Milanese ambassador described him as "cruel and fierce", and he single
handedly managed to scupper at least one promising peace conference in London. I
have a suspicion he might also have been behind the attempted ambush of Richard
Neville at Westminster in Nov 1458, which he narrowly escaped (they must have
hated each others guts!).
I have searched high and low for a picture of Henry, but nothing has ever turned
up. I have to say, the Holands in the mid-15thC seem to have been a pretty rough
bunch, always in or causing trouble, yet not the sharpest tools in the box when
it cam,e to surviving. Tough, uncompromising, arrogant, vengeful, unforgiving,
proud, foul-tempered and violent.... that seems to be all that was recorded?
Recklessly brave even so... if they looked at all like their dad, Duke John,
they must have been extremely intimidating!
Cheers
Martin
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Family of Robert Holand, Bastard of Exeter
WJhonson@aol.com wrote in message news:<750C3937.30173055.007FA2F6@aol.com>...
Dear Will ~
Thanks for providing the link to John Blythe Dobson's website. Much appreciated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Todd, Douglas, et al
The ancestry of Oliver Mainwaring may now be viewed at THIS link and the references do work
http://cybrary.uwinnipeg.ca/people/dobs ... aring.html
Will Johnson
Dear Will ~
Thanks for providing the link to John Blythe Dobson's website. Much appreciated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah