de Say follow-up

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Martin E. Hollick

de Say follow-up

Legg inn av Martin E. Hollick » 23 nov 2004 19:19:59

Part of the problem with sources in medeival genealogy is their lack
of universal tie-ins. It's hard to track all of a family using the
different sources.

Beatrix de Say, wife of Geoffrey Fitz Piers, 4th Earl of Essex as
given in line 97 in Ancestral Roots (8th edition) is the daughter of
William de Say. That's all it says. She is given as the daughter of
William de Say who died on 1 Aug 1177 in Carl Boyer's "Medieval
English Ancestors of Certain Americans", p. 220, which cites CP 5:116.
Is that William the same as the grandfather of Geoffrey de Say, the
Magna Carta baron as given in MCS, 5th edition, line 16A?

How do they tie into Hawise de Say, the daughter of Geoffrey de Say
who married Sir John Marshal and in turn were parents of Sir William
Marshal who married Christian de Burgh (PA3, p. 516).

Lastly, how does this all tie into the most recent postings on the de
Say family that Geoffrey de Say was a younger son of Geoffrey de Say
(died 1214), of West Greenwich, Kent, by his 2nd wife, Alice, daughter
of Aubrey de Vere, Earl of Oxford. As such, Geoffrey de Say (died
1265/71) was a younger half-brother, not son, of Geoffrey de Say, the
Magna Carta baron. This man married Aline (---) de Vaux.

Lastly, who were the parents of Isabel de Say, who married William
Fitzalan (Boyer, p. 86)?

Chris Phillips

Re: de Say follow-up

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 23 nov 2004 19:42:32

Martin E. Hollick wrote:
Beatrix de Say, wife of Geoffrey Fitz Piers, 4th Earl of Essex as
given in line 97 in Ancestral Roots (8th edition) is the daughter of
William de Say. That's all it says. She is given as the daughter of
William de Say who died on 1 Aug 1177 in Carl Boyer's "Medieval
English Ancestors of Certain Americans", p. 220, which cites CP 5:116.
Is that William the same as the grandfather of Geoffrey de Say, the
Magna Carta baron as given in MCS, 5th edition, line 16A?

No. William (d. 1177) the father of Beatrice was an uncle of Geoffrey de
Say (d. 1230).

How do they tie into Hawise de Say, the daughter of Geoffrey de Say
who married Sir John Marshal and in turn were parents of Sir William
Marshal who married Christian de Burgh (PA3, p. 516).

We don't know for sure that Hawise was a Say at all (CP viii 528 note i
suggested tentatively that she might have been, by asking "Was she a Say?").

Douglas Richardson's initial suggestion was that she might have been a
_granddaughter_ of Geoffrey de Say. Since then he has offered evidence
identifying this Geoffrey as a younger son of Geoffrey de Say (d. 1214), who
in turn was the brother of William de Say (d. 1177) the father of Beatrice.
This is a generation earlier than he had originally thought Geoffrey might
be placed, so that may make a different to the chronology (personally I find
the chronology of the Says a bit puzzling).

Lastly, how does this all tie into the most recent postings on the de
Say family that Geoffrey de Say was a younger son of Geoffrey de Say
(died 1214), of West Greenwich, Kent, by his 2nd wife, Alice, daughter
of Aubrey de Vere, Earl of Oxford. As such, Geoffrey de Say (died
1265/71) was a younger half-brother, not son, of Geoffrey de Say, the
Magna Carta baron. This man married Aline (---) de Vaux.

Yes - I think that's the current suggestion.

Lastly, who were the parents of Isabel de Say, who married William
Fitzalan (Boyer, p. 86)?

If this is William FitzAlan of Oswestry (d. 1160), her father was Elias de
Say, lord of Clun. As far as I know, this is a different Say family:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/ ... stry.shtml

Chris Phillips

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