FW: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

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Gordon Kirkemo

FW: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

Legg inn av Gordon Kirkemo » 23 nov 2004 07:01:02

I inadvertently responded to Will without sending a copy to the group.
Below is my response to Will's helpful comment.

Gordon

-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Kirkemo [mailto:kirkemo@comcast.net]
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 9:59 PM
To: WJhonson@aol.com
Subject: RE: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

Will,

Thanks for your feedback. You will note that a number of the sources can be
considered secondary. I believe, however, that the information is still
good despite this. If you, or anyone has specific information that disputes
this, then I'm very interested to know what that might be.

Regarding your specific comment, you might want to actually check the source
directly. The "Memoir" is part of a larger article honoring John Farmer who
is considered by many to be "the Father of Genealogy in New England." To
give some emphasis to the point, this is from the first article in the first
ever volume to the NEHGS Register. I believe the Register has a generally
solid reputation, and the honor extended to Mr. Farmer and his family should
help alleviate your concern.

I do appreciate you reading my post, and I look forward to other comments.

Sincerely,
Gordon



-----Original Message-----
From: WJhonson@aol.com [mailto:WJhonson@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 9:40 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

In a message dated 11/22/2004 9:32:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kirkemo@comcast.net writes:

(2) "Genealogical Memoir of the Farmer Family" by Samuel Drake, published
in the New England Historical and Genealogical Register, Volume 1.

Are you quite sure this source is reliable. I note that it was originally
published in 1847 and reprinted in 1992 without modification. Not that
works
from 1847 were all shoddy, but it is really only a secondary or tertiary
source.
Many works of this time period did not fully document THEIR sources and so
are of limited value.
In addition an article called "Memoir of the ... family" strikes me as
possible being a collection of family legends interspersed with a few
possible
facts. I see this source as a possible weak point in your thesis. Just my
opinion.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: FW: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 nov 2004 07:11:02

In a message dated 11/22/2004 9:58:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kirkemo@comcast.net writes:

To give some emphasis to the point, this is from the first article in the
first
ever volume to the NEHGS Register.

Actually this makes it worse not better in my opinion.
Will

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: FW: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 24 nov 2004 02:23:48

In article <1eb.2e8618dc.2ed42daf@aol.com>, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 11/22/2004 9:58:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kirkemo@comcast.net writes:

To give some emphasis to the point, this is from the first article in the
first
ever volume to the NEHGS Register.

Actually this makes it worse not better in my opinion.

You are right to question such a line, in the first place, at the
identity of the immigrant with specific origin and parentage--that is
where most such lines fail. But most regular posters to this list such
as Gordon would not make the mistake of constructing a long ancestry for
an immigrant if the immigrant's identity were not satisfactorily known!

The account in the Register 1 (1847), at pp. 24-25, presents a specific
filiation for the immigrant but does not make explicit any argument of
proof of parentage. The proof might be found among documents pertaining
to his mother, Isabella, who apparently came to New England as a widow
and subsequently married Thomas Wiswall. Gordon, is the connection of
Isabella (Burbage) (Farmer) Wiswall and Edward Farmer to Mr. John Farmer
of Ansley, Warwickshire perhaps satisfactorily proved in the History of
Billerica volume?


Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Gordon Kirkemo

RE: FW: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

Legg inn av Gordon Kirkemo » 24 nov 2004 03:01:01

Nat,

Thanks for your comments. Yes, the Billerica History makes a specific
reference to his mother Isabella as the wife of John Farmer of Ansley. In
addition, the marriage of Isabel Burbage and John Farmer is reported in the
History of Leicestershire (source #3). James Savage, in his "A Genealogical
Dictionary of the First Settlers of New England Before 1692" also records
that Edward Farmer was the son of John Farmer of Ansley, and that his mother
Isabella remarried Thomas Wiswell. I also have a copy of the handwritten
notes of John Farmer reporting the same information written sometime between
1806 and 1825. I have other such sources, but chose only to use a few in
the interest of space and time.

Sincerely,
Gordon

-----Original Message-----
From: Nathaniel Taylor [mailto:nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 5:24 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: FW: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

In article <1eb.2e8618dc.2ed42daf@aol.com>, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 11/22/2004 9:58:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kirkemo@comcast.net writes:

To give some emphasis to the point, this is from the first article in
the
first
ever volume to the NEHGS Register.

Actually this makes it worse not better in my opinion.

You are right to question such a line, in the first place, at the
identity of the immigrant with specific origin and parentage--that is
where most such lines fail. But most regular posters to this list such
as Gordon would not make the mistake of constructing a long ancestry for
an immigrant if the immigrant's identity were not satisfactorily known!

The account in the Register 1 (1847), at pp. 24-25, presents a specific
filiation for the immigrant but does not make explicit any argument of
proof of parentage. The proof might be found among documents pertaining
to his mother, Isabella, who apparently came to New England as a widow
and subsequently married Thomas Wiswall. Gordon, is the connection of
Isabella (Burbage) (Farmer) Wiswall and Edward Farmer to Mr. John Farmer
of Ansley, Warwickshire perhaps satisfactorily proved in the History of
Billerica volume?


Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Gjest

RE: FW: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 nov 2004 05:31:01

"James Savage, in his "A Genealogical
Dictionary of the First Settlers of New England Before 1692" also records
that Edward Farmer was the son of John Farmer of Ansley,"

But surely this is a derivative work providing no EXTRA witness to the situation, but merely repeating with the same underlying source?

Gordon Kirkemo

RE: FW: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

Legg inn av Gordon Kirkemo » 24 nov 2004 07:31:01

Will,

I readily concede that much of my source material is secondary in nature. I
also concede primary sources would be better. I've been very forthcoming
about those sources and I've identified what I thought were the relevant
ones. It was what I had available to work with. Just because they appear
to be secondary does not mean the line is automatically invalid. If I had
the primary sources, I would not need to ask for the review.

And just to reinforce the secondary information, source #3 concerning the
History of Leicestershire (page 950) provides a pedigree for the Farmer
family. In the footnotes are the following:

* "John Farmer, yeoman, marriage articles with Isabel Burbage of Packington,
Aug. 10, 1633."
* "His will <John Farmer> Aug. 18, 1658 leaves lands in Ancely and Meridon
to his wife Isabel, and legacies to nine children, John...Edward.... He
seems to have died May 2, 1663."
* "April 5, 1683. Articles of agreement between John Farmer, the grandson
of John Farmer (an infant) by Isabel his wife, daughter of Thomas Burbage of
Great Packington. She went to New England."

In reviewing the sources I have as whole, I believe the evidence is
compelling enough to warrant proposing the line to the group. I am not in
the habit of proposing spurious lines for my personal amusement. Give me
some credit for screening the sources to determine if sufficient merit
exists. I have several other lines that lack enough substance; I will
screen them from review until I find justification to submit them.

If your problem with me is that you don't like secondary sources, then I get
that and we have no further problem. You may simply want to disregard my
posting as lacking in substance.

Yet, my question remains: "Is there something wrong with the line I
proposed?" Are you aware of any information that might bear on this line?
If in your files you have information that raises a specific question
regarding any of the generations I've compiled from the sources I listed, I
would greatly appreciate hearing about it.

Regards,
Gordon

-----Original Message-----
From: WJhonson@aol.com [mailto:WJhonson@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 8:27 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: FW: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

"James Savage, in his "A Genealogical
Dictionary of the First Settlers of New England Before 1692" also records
that Edward Farmer was the son of John Farmer of Ansley,"

But surely this is a derivative work providing no EXTRA witness to the
situation, but merely repeating with the same underlying source?

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: FW: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 24 nov 2004 15:36:06

In article <JNEBIPBDPPDCGBKMKHOGCEIHENAA.kirkemo@comcast.net>,
kirkemo@comcast.net ("Gordon Kirkemo") wrote:

And just to reinforce the secondary information, source #3 concerning the
History of Leicestershire (page 950) provides a pedigree for the Farmer
family. In the footnotes are the following:

* "John Farmer, yeoman, marriage articles with Isabel Burbage of Packington,
Aug. 10, 1633."
* "His will <John Farmer> Aug. 18, 1658 leaves lands in Ancely and Meridon
to his wife Isabel, and legacies to nine children, John...Edward.... He
seems to have died May 2, 1663."
* "April 5, 1683. Articles of agreement between John Farmer, the grandson
of John Farmer (an infant) by Isabel his wife, daughter of Thomas Burbage of
Great Packington. She went to New England."

Its not just a question of 'not liking secondary sources'. One ALWAYS
needs to be hypercritical of just HOW the identity of the immigrant is
established. The tradition of identification is certainly early,
extending to Farmer's own early 19th-century work on his own line--and
Farmer is recognized as the first encyclopedic compiler of New England
immigrant prosopography. This does not make him automatically right.
And redundant reference to secondary sources does not build the proof.
This was the customary way to publish and refer to such things until the
second third of the 20th century, when people like Jacobus, Davis,
Ferris & others started to work against the easy acceptance of
traditions of immigrant identity.

Now, in this case I do not have much doubt that this is in fact the
right identification of the immigrant. It looks here that there is a
series of similarities between the known immigrants (widow Isabel Farmer
comes to NE with son Edward; John of Ansley who died at the right time
had known wife Isabel and known sons including Edward; etc.). For the
third item here--an English deed of 1683 referencing these Farmers--if
the document itself states or clearly implies that some of those
referred to are in New England, would provide a simple proof of the
relationship.

But a formal exploration of the evidence needs to be made, written up
concisely (somewhere between the scope of a Great-Migration sketch and a
full article) with reference to these documents, hopefully with copies
or abstracts of the originals in hand.

Then, the ancestry of the Ansley Farmers can be traced. If the two are
done well together, this would be a valuable journal article, both as an
example of the fact that many other perfectly valid royal descents are
lurking out there, and as a point of interest in the history of New
England genealogy generally, given Farmer's position as the father of
the field.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

John Brandon

Re: FW: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

Legg inn av John Brandon » 24 nov 2004 19:39:24

Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:

third item here--an English deed of 1683 referencing these Farmers--if
the document itself states or clearly implies that some of those
referred to are in New England, would provide a simple proof of the
relationship.

I just checked: one of the many footnotes at the bottom of this Farmer
pedigree (John Nichols' _Leicestershire_, vol. 4, part 2) clearly
states that the 1683 document says that Isabella Farmer is "now in New
England."

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: FW: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 24 nov 2004 19:51:38

In article <942d5b80.0411241039.4842fe9e@posting.google.com>,
starbuck95@hotmail.com (John Brandon) wrote:

Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:

third item here--an English deed of 1683 referencing these Farmers--if
the document itself states or clearly implies that some of those
referred to are in New England, would provide a simple proof of the
relationship.

I just checked: one of the many footnotes at the bottom of this Farmer
pedigree (John Nichols' _Leicestershire_, vol. 4, part 2) clearly
states that the 1683 document says that Isabella Farmer is "now in New
England."

That looks good to me, but it should all be written up concisely and
well. Now, on to the next point: is the ancestry that Gordon K. posted
valid?

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Gjest

RE: FW: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 nov 2004 20:21:01

"I've been very forthcoming about those sources and I've identified what I thought were the relevant ones. It was what I had available to work with. Just because they appear
to be secondary does not mean the line is automatically invalid."

I have no problem with secondary sources, as long as people acknowledge they are are in fact secondary. Secondary sources are subject to prior interpretation by the compilers of same, which interpretation may not be accurate in the face of modern methods and information.
My point (no need to protest so much), is that here you are truly trying to PROVE a lineage not merely dabbling about. In that case you should get, wherever possible, your OWN copy of each primary document in that line. You may think this foolish, but I myself, blowing my own horn, have wiped out entire generations of descendents by pointing out a misread comma in a will.
Now if someone of such limited intellect as myself can point out the mistakes of prior generations of researchers, surely *you* would not want to RELY with utmost fidelity on those possible mistakes and thus present a lineage that can be shown to be false by the next person who comes along.
It's always better to post complete extracts of documents, as you can see from this list, sometimes it takes two, three or fifteen people to interpret a document correctly. The advantage of posting complete extracts in scholarly genealogical articles is to allow others to come along and made additions and corrections, having the full face of the proof in front of them.

Will Johnson

John Brandon

Re: FW: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

Legg inn av John Brandon » 24 nov 2004 20:23:42

Mrs. Myrtle Hyde had a note in NEHGR 126:298 that "[a] check of the
microfilm copy of the parish registers of Ansley, Warwickshire,
England, for baptisms between 1640 and 1655 disclosed the following
children of 'John Farmer yeoman and of Issabell his wife': Marye, 13
Sept. 1640; Richard, 30 April 1643; Edward, 22 May 1645; ..."

Normally, I'd be a bit discouraged to find him called "yeoman," but
Nichols, in the footnotes to his Farmer pedigree, also reproduced
documents calling him "yeoman," while still showing his decent from
the gentry family. So this may *not* be a problem --

Gordon Kirkemo

RE: FW: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

Legg inn av Gordon Kirkemo » 24 nov 2004 20:31:01

John,

Thanks for contributing this to the discussion and for verifying my previous
message. All I have from the Leicestershire document are the pages on
Ratcliffe Culey. I note on the pedigree on page 950 that there is a
reference to page 601 associated with the placement of Mary Purefoy as the
wife of John Farmer. I'm wondering if you have access to this, as well, and
could you share it? My Purefoy line rests principally on the Visitation of
Warwickshire, and I'm well aware that may not be the best source. Perhaps
there is more on page 601 that would be helpful?

I'm heading out of town for the holiday, but will return in a couple of
days. Again, thanks for taking an interest in this.

Sincerely,
Gordon

-----Original Message-----
From: John Brandon [mailto:starbuck95@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 10:39 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: FW: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:

third item here--an English deed of 1683 referencing these Farmers--if
the document itself states or clearly implies that some of those
referred to are in New England, would provide a simple proof of the
relationship.

I just checked: one of the many footnotes at the bottom of this Farmer
pedigree (John Nichols' _Leicestershire_, vol. 4, part 2) clearly
states that the 1683 document says that Isabella Farmer is "now in New
England."

John Brandon

Re: FW: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

Legg inn av John Brandon » 24 nov 2004 22:47:40

[I only post through Google and want to get this done right now, so
this response to Gordon will appear somewhat out of order in the
thread.]

Thanks for contributing this to the discussion and for verifying my
previous
message. All I have from the Leicestershire document are the pages
on

Ratcliffe Culey. I note on the pedigree on page 950 that there is a
reference to page 601 associated with the placement of Mary Purefoy as
the
wife of John Farmer. I'm wondering if you have access to this, as
well, and
could you share it? My Purefoy line rests principally on the
Visitation of
Warwickshire, and I'm well aware that may not be the best source.
Perhaps
there is more on page 601 that would be helpful?

John Nichols, _Leicestershire_, vol. 4, part 2, p. 601 is a pedigree
chart of Purefoy of Caldecote, co. Warwick.

"Maria, wife of John Farmer of Radcliffe" was the daughter of "Francis
Purefoy, of Caldecote, 1601; died April 27, 1613, aet. 49." The wife
of Francis was "Eleanor, daughter of John Baskervile, of Curdworth, c.
Warwick, esq."

Francis Purefoy (d. 1613) was the son of "William Purefoy, of
Caldecote, esq. died Sept. 1, 1615, aet. 88." The wife of William was
"Catherine, da. of sir William Wigston, of Wolston, co. Warwick, kt."
A Sir William Wigston of Wolston is given a biographical sketch in
_History of Parliament : House of Commons, 1509-1558_. His wife was a
daughter of Sir Robert Peyton, so this line may reward further
research.

This Purefoy line can be taken further back on p. 900.

Checking the Farmer pedigree again (p. 950), I note that Nichols cites
several documents that call members of this family "yeoman" in this
time period.

John Brandon

Re: FW: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

Legg inn av John Brandon » 25 nov 2004 04:51:35

This Purefoy line can be taken further back on p. 900.

Opps, should be p. 600.

R. Battle

Re: FW: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

Legg inn av R. Battle » 25 nov 2004 05:05:49

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004, John Brandon wrote:

This Purefoy line can be taken further back on p. 900.

Opps, should be p. 600.

I think it is actually p. 599 (p. 600 is a different continuation from the
chart on p. 599). At least it is in the copy in a local library.

-Robert Battle

John Brandon

Re: FW: Edward Farmer: Proposed GARD

Legg inn av John Brandon » 25 nov 2004 19:02:04

I think it is actually p. 599 (p. 600 is a different continuation from the
chart on p. 599). At least it is in the copy in a local library.

-Robert Battle

Yup, one of those two pp.

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