A different ancient world (and mythology ?)

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Leo van de Pas

A different ancient world (and mythology ?)

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 19 nov 2004 23:41:02

Sir Iain Moncreiffe of That Ilk, in his Royal Highness Ancestry of the Royal Child (Prince William) on page 48 gives a line from Vologaeses V, Great King of Parthia who lived around the year 200 AD to James de Lusignan, King of Cyprus.

In this line he indicates on four places that he is not certain these links are correct, and I wonder does anyone know whether these links can be substantiated?

(1st question and 2nd question)
St.Isaac the Great, herditary bishop and primate of Armenis, 378-438
father of
Sahakanoysh who married Hamazasp, Prince of the Mamikonids 3876-432
they are the parents of
Prince Hamazaspian, killed in battle in 451
he may or may not be the father of
Hamayeak, Prince of Armenia under Persian suzerainty
he may or may not have been father of
Mushel, Mamikonid prince, living 555, under Roman suzerainty
from Mushel we have a few apparently accepted generations but then

(3rd question)
Hrahat, Mamikonid prince in Armenia, under Arab suzerainty
father of
David, Mamikonid prince died in 744
he may or may not have been father of
Samuel II, Prince of the Mamikonis and heir of the Gregorid domain, killed in battle at Bagravandene in 772

(4th question)
Abusahil Hamazasp III Artsruni, King of Vaspurakan 958-968
he was father of
Derenik, Artsruinid prince
he may or may not have been father of
Khachi'k Artsunik, Prince of Tórnavan, nicknamed the deaf killed in battle in 1042
from him we have an accepted line to James de Lusignan, King of Cyprus, 1382-1398
titular king of Armenia.

Can anyone confirm (or deny) any of this? Or give additional information?
Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Williams Family

Re: A different ancient world (and mythology ?)

Legg inn av Williams Family » 20 nov 2004 00:51:02

Hello Leo,

I'm not an expert on the early Medieval Armenian lines but as I
understand it the general arguments for this lineage are something like
this:

Sir Iain Moncreiffe of That Ilk, in his Royal Highness Ancestry of the Royal Child (Prince William) on page 48 gives a line from Vologaeses V, Great King of Parthia who lived around the year 200 AD to James de Lusignan, King of Cyprus.

In this line he indicates on four places that he is not certain these links are correct, and I wonder does anyone know whether these links can be substantiated?

(1st question and 2nd question)
St.Isaac the Great, herditary bishop and primate of Armenis, 378-438
father of
Sahakanoysh who married Hamazasp, Prince of the Mamikonids 3876-432
they are the parents of
Prince Hamazaspian, killed in battle in 451


he may or may not be the father of
Hamayeak, Prince of Armenia under Persian suzerainty
he may or may not have been father of
Mushel, Mamikonid prince, living 555, under Roman suzerainty
from Mushel we have a few apparently accepted generations but then


The fundamental problem with the Mamikonian pedigree is that the paucity

of the existing sources don't allow us to fully reconstruct it and so
each scholar has offered his own version of the genealogy, attaching
people together principally on onomastic evidence. Settipani gives what
I think is the best reconstruction in _Nos Ancetres de l'Antiquite_
(Paris, 1991), in which he states that Moushegh I (your Mushel) was son
of one Hmayeak who may have been a son of Vard Mamikonian who was
marzban from 505-509 and was one of the sons of Hmayeak (not Hamazasp)
who was killed in 451.

Settipani also suggests that the link between Vahan, Prince of Taron,
ca. 600, son of Moushegh I, and his supposed son Dawith is only
conjectural as is that between Moushegh III (sparapet 701) and his
supposed son Hrahat (mentioned below).

(3rd question)
Hrahat, Mamikonid prince in Armenia, under Arab suzerainty
father of
David, Mamikonid prince died in 744
he may or may not have been father of
Samuel II, Prince of the Mamikonis and heir of the Gregorid domain, killed in battle at Bagravandene in 772


Settipani doesn't comment on this connection but Toumanoff does in the

1976 edition of his _Manuel_ (which is, I suspect, the source that
Moncreiffe used). Toumanoff gives only a dotted line which, knowing his
research, could mean anything from a fairly probable connection to a
wild guess.

(4th question)
Abusahil Hamazasp III Artsruni, King of Vaspurakan 958-968
he was father of
Derenik, Artsruinid prince
he may or may not have been father of



Again, Toumanoff gives only a dotted line. I recall reading that a
contemporary genealogy of the Arcruni/Artsruni family was translated
into English and published fairly recently. Perhaps someone is familiar
with the specifics?

Khachi'k Artsunik, Prince of Tórnavan, nicknamed the deaf killed in battle in 1042
from him we have an accepted line to James de Lusignan, King of Cyprus, 1382-1398
titular king of Armenia.

Can anyone confirm (or deny) any of this? Or give additional information?
Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia



Sincerely,

Kelsey J. Williams

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