Thomas de Marle de Coucy consanguinity with wife?

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Pat Patterson

Thomas de Marle de Coucy consanguinity with wife?

Legg inn av Pat Patterson » 19 nov 2004 22:41:02

Abbot Suger in "Life of King Louis the Fat" (per the translated version
online at Medieval Sourcebook) ends Ch. 7: The castle of Montaigu
with "Thomas de Marle lost both the castle and his marriage by annulment on
grounds on consanguinity."

Was that the case? If so, can anyone show me the consanguinity? I have the
following ancestors for Thomas and his 2 wives. Corrections and additions
welcomed, of course.

Pat Patterson
pat@patpatterson.us
=======================

1 Thomas I de Coucy
b. ca 1073, Coucy, Aisne, Picardie
d. 1131

2 Enguerrand I de Coucy
b. 1054 ?, Coucy, Aisne, Picardie
d. ca 1116
3 Ada \ Adèle de Marle
b. 1044, Marle, Aisne, Picardie

4 Dreux de Coucy
b. ca 1038
d. aft 1069

6 Albéric de Coucy
b. Coucy, Aisne, Picardie
7 Adèle
b. ca 1022?


============================================================
1 Ida de Hainaut
b. bet 1080 and 1095
d. aft 1109

2 Baudouin II de Hainaut
b. 1056
m. 1084
d. Jun 1097, on crusade, siege of Nicea
3 Ida de Louvain
b. bet 1050 and 1078
d. Apr 1107

4 Baudouin VI 'de Mons' de Flandre
b. 1030
m. 1051
d. 1071
5 Richilde de Hainaut
b. 1020, Hainaut
d. 15 Mar 1086
6 Henri II de Louvain, Comte de Louvain
d. 1078
7 Adélaïde de Betau
b. ca 1030
d. Apr 1086

8 Baudouin V 'de Lille' 'le debonair' de Flandre
b. 1012
m. ca Jan 1028
d. 1 Sep 1067, Lille, Nord
9 Adèle / Alaïs Capet
b. ca 1013
d. 8 Jan 1079, Messines
10-Baudouin II DE HAINAUT
b. 1056
d. Jun 1097
12 Lambert II Baldéric de Louvain, Comte de Louvain
d. 1063
13 Oda de Verdun
14 Eberhard de Betau


16 Baudouin IV 'le Barbu' de Flandre
b. 980
m. 1012
d. 1035
17 Odgiva de Luxembourg
b. 994 ?
d. 21 Feb 1030
18 Robert II 'le Pieux' (Capet)
b. 27 Mar 972
m. 1005-1006
d. 20 Jul 1031
19 Constance de Provence / Constance d'Arles
b. ca 986
d. 25 Jul 1032
24 Henri I de Louvain, Comte de Louvain
d. 1038

32 Arnulf II de Flandre
b. 961
d. 988
33 Rosala di Italia
b. ca 952
d. ca 1003
34 Frederick de Luxembourg
b. 960?
d. 6 Oct 1019
35 Irmtrud
36 Hugh Capet
b. 941
d. 24 Oct 996
37 Adelaide de Poitou
b. ca 945
d. 15 Jun 1006
38 Guillaume II de Provence / d'Arles
b. 950
d. 993/4
39 Adelais / Blanche d'Anjou
b. ca 945
d. 1026
48 Lambert I 'Barbutus' de Louvain
m. ca 990
d. 12 Sep 1015, Florennes
49 Gerberge de Basse-Lorraine
b. ca 975
d. Apr 1018

64 Baudouin III de Flandre
b. 940
d. 962
65 Mathilde of Saxony
66 Berenger II de Toscane
b. 900-919
d. 6 Aug 966
67 Willa III d'Arles
68 Siegfried de Luxembourg
b. bef 919
d. 998
69 Hedwig
70 Heribert
b. ca 915?
d. 992
71 Irmintrud
72 Hugues 'le Grand' (Capet)
b. ca 895
d. 16 Jun 956
73 Hedweg of Saxony
b. ca 921
d. 10 May 965
74 Guillaume III 'Tete d'Etoupe' d'Aquitaine / de Poitou
b. 920-925
d. 3 Apr 963
75 Adèle de Normandie
b. ca 917
d.ca 14 Oct 962
76 Boso II de Provence
b. ca 928
d. 965-967
77 Constance de Vienne
b. ca 930
d. 961-965
78 Foulques II 'le Bon' 'le Pieux' d'Anjou
b. ca 905
d. 960
79 Gerberge de Gâtinais915,d.bef 952
b. 915
d. bef 952
96 Regnier III de Hainaut
b. ca 920
d. 973
97 Adèle de Louvain
d. 961
98 Charles, duc de Basse-Lorraine
b. 953
d. 994
99 Adelaide / Adelheid


==========================================================

1 Mélisende de Crécy
b. ca 1080, Crécy
d. aft 1147

2 Gui II "le Roux" de Montlhéry
b. 1037
d. 1108
3 Adèle de Crécy dame de la Ferté-Baudouin
b. 1028
d. 1104
4 Gui I de Montlhéry
d. 1095
5 Hodierne de Gometz-la-Ferté
b. ca 1015

8 Milon de Montlhéry
b. bef 1034
d. aft 1057

17 Thibaut de Montlhéry

Leo van de Pas

Re: Thomas de Marle de Coucy consanguinity with wife?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 19 nov 2004 23:01:02

Dear Pat,

It is not my intention to be beastly to you, but I think you are sending us
all on a wild goose chase. You want to know the relationship between Thomas
de Marle and ONLY the wife he divorced on grounds of consanguinity? The two
wives you give, as far as I can see, were not divorced by him, nor have they
anything to do with Montaigu.

In my data base I have him married three times, (I) Ida de Hainault (2)
Ermengarde de Montaigu who was divorced (3) Mélesinde de Crécy. I would
think you want to know about Ermengarde but sadly I have only a name for her
father. If you want, go to my website http://www.genealogics.org and enter
in Easy Name Search Thomas de Marle and you will find them. Hope this
helps, at least a little? If you want to call up anyone's pedigree (ancestor
list) you can change the 4 (number of generations) up to 8.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pat Patterson" <pat@patpatterson.us>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 8:35 AM
Subject: Thomas de Marle de Coucy consanguinity with wife?


Abbot Suger in "Life of King Louis the Fat" (per the translated version
online at Medieval Sourcebook) ends Ch. 7: The castle of Montaigu
with "Thomas de Marle lost both the castle and his marriage by annulment
on
grounds on consanguinity."

Was that the case? If so, can anyone show me the consanguinity? I have
the
following ancestors for Thomas and his 2 wives. Corrections and additions
welcomed, of course.

Pat Patterson
pat@patpatterson.us
=======================

1 Thomas I de Coucy
b. ca 1073, Coucy, Aisne, Picardie
d. 1131

2 Enguerrand I de Coucy
b. 1054 ?, Coucy, Aisne, Picardie
d. ca 1116
3 Ada \ Adèle de Marle
b. 1044, Marle, Aisne, Picardie

4 Dreux de Coucy
b. ca 1038
d. aft 1069

6 Albéric de Coucy
b. Coucy, Aisne, Picardie
7 Adèle
b. ca 1022?


============================================================
1 Ida de Hainaut
b. bet 1080 and 1095
d. aft 1109

2 Baudouin II de Hainaut
b. 1056
m. 1084
d. Jun 1097, on crusade, siege of Nicea
3 Ida de Louvain
b. bet 1050 and 1078
d. Apr 1107

4 Baudouin VI 'de Mons' de Flandre
b. 1030
m. 1051
d. 1071
5 Richilde de Hainaut
b. 1020, Hainaut
d. 15 Mar 1086
6 Henri II de Louvain, Comte de Louvain
d. 1078
7 Adélaïde de Betau
b. ca 1030
d. Apr 1086

8 Baudouin V 'de Lille' 'le debonair' de Flandre
b. 1012
m. ca Jan 1028
d. 1 Sep 1067, Lille, Nord
9 Adèle / Alaïs Capet
b. ca 1013
d. 8 Jan 1079, Messines
10-Baudouin II DE HAINAUT
b. 1056
d. Jun 1097
12 Lambert II Baldéric de Louvain, Comte de Louvain
d. 1063
13 Oda de Verdun
14 Eberhard de Betau


16 Baudouin IV 'le Barbu' de Flandre
b. 980
m. 1012
d. 1035
17 Odgiva de Luxembourg
b. 994 ?
d. 21 Feb 1030
18 Robert II 'le Pieux' (Capet)
b. 27 Mar 972
m. 1005-1006
d. 20 Jul 1031
19 Constance de Provence / Constance d'Arles
b. ca 986
d. 25 Jul 1032
24 Henri I de Louvain, Comte de Louvain
d. 1038

32 Arnulf II de Flandre
b. 961
d. 988
33 Rosala di Italia
b. ca 952
d. ca 1003
34 Frederick de Luxembourg
b. 960?
d. 6 Oct 1019
35 Irmtrud
36 Hugh Capet
b. 941
d. 24 Oct 996
37 Adelaide de Poitou
b. ca 945
d. 15 Jun 1006
38 Guillaume II de Provence / d'Arles
b. 950
d. 993/4
39 Adelais / Blanche d'Anjou
b. ca 945
d. 1026
48 Lambert I 'Barbutus' de Louvain
m. ca 990
d. 12 Sep 1015, Florennes
49 Gerberge de Basse-Lorraine
b. ca 975
d. Apr 1018

64 Baudouin III de Flandre
b. 940
d. 962
65 Mathilde of Saxony
66 Berenger II de Toscane
b. 900-919
d. 6 Aug 966
67 Willa III d'Arles
68 Siegfried de Luxembourg
b. bef 919
d. 998
69 Hedwig
70 Heribert
b. ca 915?
d. 992
71 Irmintrud
72 Hugues 'le Grand' (Capet)
b. ca 895
d. 16 Jun 956
73 Hedweg of Saxony
b. ca 921
d. 10 May 965
74 Guillaume III 'Tete d'Etoupe' d'Aquitaine / de Poitou
b. 920-925
d. 3 Apr 963
75 Adèle de Normandie
b. ca 917
d.ca 14 Oct 962
76 Boso II de Provence
b. ca 928
d. 965-967
77 Constance de Vienne
b. ca 930
d. 961-965
78 Foulques II 'le Bon' 'le Pieux' d'Anjou
b. ca 905
d. 960
79 Gerberge de Gâtinais915,d.bef 952
b. 915
d. bef 952
96 Regnier III de Hainaut
b. ca 920
d. 973
97 Adèle de Louvain
d. 961
98 Charles, duc de Basse-Lorraine
b. 953
d. 994
99 Adelaide / Adelheid


==========================================================

1 Mélisende de Crécy
b. ca 1080, Crécy
d. aft 1147

2 Gui II "le Roux" de Montlhéry
b. 1037
d. 1108
3 Adèle de Crécy dame de la Ferté-Baudouin
b. 1028
d. 1104
4 Gui I de Montlhéry
d. 1095
5 Hodierne de Gometz-la-Ferté
b. ca 1015

8 Milon de Montlhéry
b. bef 1034
d. aft 1057

17 Thibaut de Montlhéry








Peter Stewart

Re: Thomas de Marle de Coucy consanguinity with wife?

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 nov 2004 11:09:58

Leo van de Pas wrote:
Dear Pat,

It is not my intention to be beastly to you, but I think you are sending us
all on a wild goose chase. You want to know the relationship between Thomas
de Marle and ONLY the wife he divorced on grounds of consanguinity? The two
wives you give, as far as I can see, were not divorced by him, nor have they
anything to do with Montaigu.

In my data base I have him married three times, (I) Ida de Hainault (2)
Ermengarde de Montaigu who was divorced (3) Mélesinde de Crécy. I would
think you want to know about Ermengarde but sadly I have only a name for her
father.

Dominique Barthélemy in _Les deux âges de la seigneurie banale: Pouvoir
et société dans la terre des sires de Coucy (milieu XIe-milieu XIIIe
siècle)_ (Paris, 1984), pp. 70-71, considered that the wives of Thomas
above were probably married to him in the order (2), (1), (3).

He also discussed the consanguinity between Thomas and his Montaigu
wife, in note 93 on pp. 74-75, but without reaching any definite
conclusion since her ancestry is not established.

Peter Stewart

Leo van de Pas

Re: Thomas de Marle de Coucy consanguinity with wife?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 20 nov 2004 22:21:01

Dear Peter,
Many thanks for this, yet another amendment, which is much appreciated.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: Thomas de Marle de Coucy consanguinity with wife?


Leo van de Pas wrote:
Dear Pat,

It is not my intention to be beastly to you, but I think you are sending
us
all on a wild goose chase. You want to know the relationship between
Thomas
de Marle and ONLY the wife he divorced on grounds of consanguinity? The
two
wives you give, as far as I can see, were not divorced by him, nor have
they
anything to do with Montaigu.

In my data base I have him married three times, (I) Ida de Hainault (2)
Ermengarde de Montaigu who was divorced (3) Mélesinde de Crécy. I would
think you want to know about Ermengarde but sadly I have only a name for
her
father.

Dominique Barthélemy in _Les deux âges de la seigneurie banale: Pouvoir
et société dans la terre des sires de Coucy (milieu XIe-milieu XIIIe
siècle)_ (Paris, 1984), pp. 70-71, considered that the wives of Thomas
above were probably married to him in the order (2), (1), (3).

He also discussed the consanguinity between Thomas and his Montaigu
wife, in note 93 on pp. 74-75, but without reaching any definite
conclusion since her ancestry is not established.

Peter Stewart


Gjest

Re: Thomas de Marle de Coucy consanguinity with wife?

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 nov 2004 21:41:02

"1 Thomas I de Coucy
b. ca 1073, Coucy, Aisne, Picardie
d. 1131

2 Enguerrand I de Coucy
b. 1054 ?, Coucy, Aisne, Picardie
d. ca 1116
3 Ada \ Adèle de Marle
b. 1044, Marle, Aisne, Picardie"

Is there evidence for this name "Thomas de Coucy" ?
I have this person and his parents in my database and there note that he was Comte d'Amiens. His father Enguerrand de Coucy ? I have as Enguerrand de Boves, Count of Amiens.
Ada was the Heiress of Marle. I'm not sure of the ascription of "de Coucy" to her husband, except perhaps through inheritence from his wife. At any rate I would think Count of Amiens would trump that and he should be so styled.
Appreciate any discussion on that.
Will

Peter Stewart

Re: Thomas de Marle de Coucy consanguinity with wife?

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 21 nov 2004 23:12:18

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
"1 Thomas I de Coucy
b. ca 1073, Coucy, Aisne, Picardie
d. 1131

2 Enguerrand I de Coucy
b. 1054 ?, Coucy, Aisne, Picardie
d. ca 1116
3 Ada \ Adèle de Marle
b. 1044, Marle, Aisne, Picardie"

Is there evidence for this name "Thomas de Coucy" ?
I have this person and his parents in my database and there note that he was Comte d'Amiens. His father Enguerrand de Coucy ? I have as Enguerrand de Boves, Count of Amiens.
Ada was the Heiress of Marle. I'm not sure of the ascription of "de Coucy" to her husband, except perhaps through inheritence from his wife. At any rate I would think Count of Amiens would trump that and he should be so styled.
Appreciate any discussion on that.

Hitorians usually prefer to follow sources that refer to the father as
Enguerrand "de Bova" (de Boves) and to the notorious son as Thomas "de
Marla" (de Marle).

Both men are called count, sometimes of Amiens and sometimes of Coucy,
but other sources name them merely as lords in the same timeframe.

Enguerrand took possession of Coucy with the complicity its heiress,
Ada. She then repudiated her first husband, the negligent castellan
Alberic de Beaumont, and married Enguerrand: Marle and Coucy belonged to
him only by right of his wife.

These events took place, according to Dominique Barthélemy, in 1079 - I
haven't checked this point - and computing from the year of his parents'
marriage and the fact that Thomas himself departed on crusade in 1095,
indicating that he must have been at least 15 years old at the time,
Barthélemy places his birth in 1080.

The birthdate of 1044 for Ada is unfounded. She was said to be daughter
of Letald de Marle, but given the chronological stretch in this
genealogy she may have been his granddaughter.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Thomas de Marle de Coucy consanguinity with wife?

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 nov 2004 23:41:01

"The birthdate of 1044 for Ada is unfounded. She was said to be daughter of Letald de Marle, but given the chronological stretch in this genealogy she may have been his granddaughter."

Thank you Peter. Indeed I have Ada listed (without source citation unfortunately) as the daughter of Alberic de Coucy and Alde of Roucy, Dame de Marle with this alledged Alde's parents being the Letald of Roucy, Seigneur de Marle that you mentioned.

I believe that there was an article online that gives this descent, I will have to look for it again. Unfortunately I didn't cite the source of this descent. Presumably they are claiming that Ada obtained Marle from her mother and Coucy from her father. If I can find the citation again I will post it.
Will

Peter Stewart

Re: Thomas de Marle de Coucy consanguinity with wife?

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 22 nov 2004 00:20:51

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
"The birthdate of 1044 for Ada is unfounded. She was said to be daughter of Letald de Marle, but given the chronological stretch in this genealogy she may have been his granddaughter."

Thank you Peter. Indeed I have Ada listed (without source citation unfortunately) as the daughter of Alberic de Coucy and Alde of Roucy, Dame de Marle with this alledged Alde's parents being the Letald of Roucy, Seigneur de Marle that you mentioned.

I believe that there was an article online that gives this descent, I will have to look for it again. Unfortunately I didn't cite the source of this descent. Presumably they are claiming that Ada obtained Marle from her mother and Coucy from her father. If I can find the citation again I will post it.

Although I think Ada de Marle might have been granddaughter rather than
daughter to Letald, I don't know of any evidence for naming different
parents.

Her first husband was Alberic de Beaumont-sur-Oise, who was castellan of
Coucy in her right. Adding another generation to make Enguerrand's wife
this man's daughter is not plausible, as it must set aside the
better-attested history of Ada's repudiating Alberic in favour of
Enguerrand.

The source making her daughter of Letald is 'Genealogiae scriptoris
Fusniacensis' printed in Monumenta Gernamiae Historica, Scriptores XIII
(Hanover, 1881). This was written at Foigny, probably by the abbot, in
the 1160s and states: "Letaldus de Marla habuit filiam nomine Adam. Ada
filium nomine Thomam de Marla; qui duxit sororem Balduini comitis
Hainonensis" (p. 253, Letald de Marle had a daughter named Ada, she a
son named Thomas who married the sister of Count Balduin of Hainaut
[i.e. Ida, sister of Balduin III, who was - evidently the second - wife
of Thomas 'the raging wolf']).

We can only speculate beyond this. The trouble is that Letald's father,
according to the same source, was Gislebert, count of Roucy, who was
probably born in the 950s and died in the 990s or at the latest in April
1000. Ada was herself married by 1059 (hence I suppose your source's
unsupported calculation that she was born exactly 15 years before then),
and her son & heir was apparently born in 1080.

This is not impossible, but given the span of ca 130 years from
Gislebert to Thomas, and the tightness of Letald's birth presumably
around the time of his father's death, along with the lateness of the
source, there is room for doubt.

Peter Stewart

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Thomas de Marle de Coucy consanguinity with wife?

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 22 nov 2004 02:20:11

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:20:51 GMT, Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
wrote:

Although I think Ada de Marle might have been granddaughter rather than
daughter to Letald, I don't know of any evidence for naming different
parents.

Her first husband was Alberic de Beaumont-sur-Oise, who was castellan of
Coucy in her right. Adding another generation to make Enguerrand's wife
this man's daughter is not plausible, as it must set aside the
better-attested history of Ada's repudiating Alberic in favour of
Enguerrand.

The source making her daughter of Letald is 'Genealogiae scriptoris
Fusniacensis' printed in Monumenta Gernamiae Historica, Scriptores XIII
(Hanover, 1881). This was written at Foigny, probably by the abbot, in
the 1160s and states: "Letaldus de Marla habuit filiam nomine Adam. Ada
filium nomine Thomam de Marla; qui duxit sororem Balduini comitis
Hainonensis" (p. 253, Letald de Marle had a daughter named Ada, she a
son named Thomas who married the sister of Count Balduin of Hainaut
[i.e. Ida, sister of Balduin III, who was - evidently the second - wife
of Thomas 'the raging wolf']).

We can only speculate beyond this. The trouble is that Letald's father,
according to the same source, was Gislebert, count of Roucy, who was
probably born in the 950s and died in the 990s or at the latest in April
1000. Ada was herself married by 1059 (hence I suppose your source's
unsupported calculation that she was born exactly 15 years before then),
and her son & heir was apparently born in 1080.

This is not impossible, but given the span of ca 130 years from
Gislebert to Thomas, and the tightness of Letald's birth presumably
around the time of his father's death, along with the lateness of the
source, there is room for doubt.

The parentage of Letald is not given in the Foigny Genealogy (or, I
believe, in any other early source), which only states that Letald de
Marle was a brother of Ebles de Roucy and of countess Ivette/Juette of
Rethel. This has been discussed before on the newsgroup, and there
have been conjectures regarding the route by which the title of count
of Roucy went from Giselbert's hands to those of Ebles (with the
"orthodox" account being that they were father and son, which was
never anything more than a conjecture), but I do not believe that any
definitive conclusions have been reached regarding the relationship
between Giselbert and Letald.

Stewart Baldwin

Peter Stewart

Re: Thomas de Marle de Coucy consanguinity with wife?

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 22 nov 2004 04:11:54

Stewart Baldwin wrote:
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:20:51 GMT, Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com
wrote:


Although I think Ada de Marle might have been granddaughter rather than
daughter to Letald, I don't know of any evidence for naming different
parents.

Her first husband was Alberic de Beaumont-sur-Oise, who was castellan of
Coucy in her right. Adding another generation to make Enguerrand's wife
this man's daughter is not plausible, as it must set aside the
better-attested history of Ada's repudiating Alberic in favour of
Enguerrand.

The source making her daughter of Letald is 'Genealogiae scriptoris
Fusniacensis' printed in Monumenta Gernamiae Historica, Scriptores XIII
(Hanover, 1881). This was written at Foigny, probably by the abbot, in
the 1160s and states: "Letaldus de Marla habuit filiam nomine Adam. Ada
filium nomine Thomam de Marla; qui duxit sororem Balduini comitis
Hainonensis" (p. 253, Letald de Marle had a daughter named Ada, she a
son named Thomas who married the sister of Count Balduin of Hainaut
[i.e. Ida, sister of Balduin III, who was - evidently the second - wife
of Thomas 'the raging wolf']).

We can only speculate beyond this. The trouble is that Letald's father,
according to the same source, was Gislebert, count of Roucy, who was
probably born in the 950s and died in the 990s or at the latest in April
1000. Ada was herself married by 1059 (hence I suppose your source's
unsupported calculation that she was born exactly 15 years before then),
and her son & heir was apparently born in 1080.

This is not impossible, but given the span of ca 130 years from
Gislebert to Thomas, and the tightness of Letald's birth presumably
around the time of his father's death, along with the lateness of the
source, there is room for doubt.


The parentage of Letald is not given in the Foigny Genealogy (or, I
believe, in any other early source), which only states that Letald de
Marle was a brother of Ebles de Roucy and of countess Ivette/Juette of
Rethel. This has been discussed before on the newsgroup, and there
have been conjectures regarding the route by which the title of count
of Roucy went from Giselbert's hands to those of Ebles (with the
"orthodox" account being that they were father and son, which was
never anything more than a conjecture), but I do not believe that any
definitive conclusions have been reached regarding the relationship
between Giselbert and Letald.

Yes, I was careless to skip over this and quite wrong in misstating the
information given in the source that I cited.

The problem is that the Foigny genealogist made Letald a sibling of
Ebles (p. 252, "Ebalus de Roceio cuius frater fuit Lebaldus de Malla"),
who was probably son of Gislebert or at any rate apparently his
successor as count of Roucy. Ebles was dead in 1033, leaving only
daughters, and may be the same man who had become archbishop of Rheims
in 1021. The chronological difficulty is not significantly affected if,
for instance, the speculation is accepted making Ebles of Poitou the
father of Ebles of Roucy; or for that matter if an extra generation
should be added between Gislebert and the brothers Ebles and Letald in
the more conventional suppostition of an agnatic link.

Whoever their father might have been, I find it hard to accept that in
such circumstances Letald would have waited until his own middle age,
perhaps a decade after his alleged brother's death, to sire the only
child ascribed to him - a daughter who herself had a son approximately
80-90 years after Letald's birth.

Peter Stewart

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»