My comments interspersed below
"Let's start with Esau. From Genesis 25:25 we read in JPS (Jewish Publication Society's English translation of the Tanakh/Jewish Bible) "And the first came forth ruddy all over like a hairy mantle, and they called his name Esau." The word ruddy is a translation of the Hebrew word Admoni, which means red in reference to hair."
What is your source that Admoni refers to hair? Easton's Bible dictionary states that, in this passage, it refers to his "complexion".
"For David we have in 1 Samuel 16:12 in JPS "He sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of beautiful eyes, and goodly to look upon. And HaShem said, 'Arise, anoint him; for this is he'"
In the NKJV we read "So he sent and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, with bright eyes, and good-looking. And the LORD said, "Arise, anoint him; for this is the one!"
We also have 1 Samuel 17:42 in JPS "And when the Philistine looked about, and saw David, he disdained him; for he was but a youth, and ruddy, and withal of a fair countenance."
In the NKJV we read "And when the Philistine looked about and saw David, he disdained him; for he was only a youth, ruddy and good-looking."
And further I note that the word Admoni only occurs three times in the entire Tanakh (Old Testament). And in particular I note the appearance in Canticles 5:10 "My beloved is white and ruddy, chosen out of thousands".
It's difficult for me to consider that a word used only three times, in the entire Bible, is supposed to denote such an alledged common feature of the Jews, that they were particularly known for being red-heads. Esp. as you apply it to Esau, a person who sired no known "Jewish" descendents.
I suppose you're not going to present us with the "belief" that Esau was a progenitor of David through a maternal line or some such correction ....
Will
[OT] Re: King David and Esau & Red Hair
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
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Matthew Rockefeller
Re: [OT] Re: King David and Esau & Red Hair
What is your source that Admoni refers to hair? Easton's Bible dictionary states that, in this passage, it refers to his "complexion".
We read in the Strong's Concordance of the Bible 132 'admoniy
ad-mo-nee' or (fully) admowniy {ad-mo-nee'}; from 119; reddish (of the
hair or the complexion):--red, ruddy.
Also, a quick piece from Rabbi Kalman Packouz:
The Torah states, "And the first came out red, all over like a hairy
garment; and they called his name Esav (Esau)." (Genesis 25:25) Esau
became a murderer and his red hair became associated with a
personality that might lead to murder. (Even today many people think
of red-haired people as passionate, sometime quick to anger
personalities.)
The Midrash, (Braishit Rabbah 63) relates that when the prophet Shmuel
(Samuel) went to appoint David to be the king of Israel, he saw that
David was "admoni," of ruddy complexion. He became very frightened and
said, "He too will be a murderer like Esau." The Almighty told Shmuel
that there was no need to be afraid. When Esau killed it was in cold
blood, but David would only take a life to carry out the just
decisions of the Sanhedrin (the Jewish Supreme Court).
Admoni refers to having both a reddish complexion and red hair.
And further I note that the word Admoni only occurs three times in the entire Tanakh (Old Testament). And in particular I note the appearance in Canticles 5:10 "My beloved is white and ruddy, chosen out of thousands".
It's difficult for me to consider that a word used only three times, in the entire Bible, is supposed to denote such an alledged common feature of the Jews, that they were particularly known for being red-heads. Esp. as you apply it to Esau, a person who sired no known "Jewish" descendents.
I suppose you're not going to present us with the "belief" that Esau was a progenitor of David through a maternal line or some such correction ....
Will
David wasn't a descendant of Esau as far as I know. He was of
Israelite and Moabite origin, and also a descendant of Rahab of
Jericho. Esau was of course an ancestral uncle, and if Esau had red
hair it stands to reason that his nephews and nieces sure could have
had. In fact Joseph, his nephew, is described as being of very fair
complexion in the Talmud.
On a side note on something that may be interesting to some. We have a
description of Jesus from the Archko Volume (The Archeological
Writings of the Sanhedrim & Talmuds of the Jews) called Gamaliel's
Interview, it reads about his physical description as follows:
"I asked him to describe this person to me, so that I might know him
if I should meet him. He said: 'If you ever meet him you will know
him. While he is nothing but a man, there is something about him that
distinguishes him from every other man. He is the picture of his
mother, only he has not her smooth, round face. His hair is a little
more golden than hers, though it is as much from sunburn as anything
else. He is tall, and his shoulders are a little drooped; his visage
is thin and of a swarthy complexion, though this is from exposure. His
eyes are large and a soft blue, and rather dull and heavy.'"
Matthew
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Gjest
Re: [OT] Re: King David and Esau & Red Hair
In a message dated 11/18/2004 2:03:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com (Matthew Rockefeller) writes:
That is your interpretation, not a fact. The point being that the Tanakh does not make the issue clear. The midrashes of course, are just a series of interpretations by one Rabbi or another and no more factual than an interpretation that I might give of a document one thousand years after the fact.
However it does not go to the point that a large number of Jews were red-headed. Rather the very meager number of references (two even if we allow your circular interpretation) would indicate that red hair was quite uncommon.
The Archko volume is totally fictitious. It has no standing among serious researchers.
Will
Admoni refers to having both a reddish complexion and red hair.
That is your interpretation, not a fact. The point being that the Tanakh does not make the issue clear. The midrashes of course, are just a series of interpretations by one Rabbi or another and no more factual than an interpretation that I might give of a document one thousand years after the fact.
it stands to reason that his nephews and nieces sure could have had. In fact Joseph, his nephew, is described as being of very fair complexion in the Talmud.
However it does not go to the point that a large number of Jews were red-headed. Rather the very meager number of references (two even if we allow your circular interpretation) would indicate that red hair was quite uncommon.
On a side note on something that may be interesting to some. We have a description of Jesus from the Archko Volume (The Archeological Writings of the Sanhedrim & Talmuds of the Jews) called Gamaliel's Interview, it reads about his physical description as follows:
"I asked him to describe this person to me, so that I might know him
if I should meet him. He said: 'If you ever meet him you will know
him. While he is nothing but a man, there is something about him that
distinguishes him from every other man. He is the picture of his
mother, only he has not her smooth, round face. His hair is a little
more golden than hers, though it is as much from sunburn as anything
else. He is tall, and his shoulders are a little drooped; his visage
is thin and of a swarthy complexion, though this is from exposure. His
eyes are large and a soft blue, and rather dull and heavy.'"
Matthew
The Archko volume is totally fictitious. It has no standing among serious researchers.
Will