Origins of Ethiopian Jews was Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Origins of Ethiopian Jews was Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish
"Talking about lost tribes of Israel, I seem to remember how several years ago Ethiopian negroes were migrated to Israel and that they were regarded as Jews, one of the lost tribes that had left Israel a long time ago. I find the word "tribe" confusing, as, probably, it was only a small number of people involved.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia"
Yes Leo, due to the war in Ethiopia and because they were persecuted somewhat. I wouldn't say they were a "lost tribe", but their form of Judaism is rather ancient. They are called Falasha. They are observant in pre-Talmudic Jewish traditions. That supports the theory that they came there quite some time ago, maybe even before the Second Temple era.
However the idea that they are "the lost tribe of Dan" has little to no support. A better theory is that they are a remnant from the temple on Elephantine, who fled to Ethiopia when that place was destoyed in 410 BC or within the next century when they disappear from history in that place.
Will
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia"
Yes Leo, due to the war in Ethiopia and because they were persecuted somewhat. I wouldn't say they were a "lost tribe", but their form of Judaism is rather ancient. They are called Falasha. They are observant in pre-Talmudic Jewish traditions. That supports the theory that they came there quite some time ago, maybe even before the Second Temple era.
However the idea that they are "the lost tribe of Dan" has little to no support. A better theory is that they are a remnant from the temple on Elephantine, who fled to Ethiopia when that place was destoyed in 410 BC or within the next century when they disappear from history in that place.
Will
-
Bronwen Edwards
Re: Origins of Ethiopian Jews was Re: Scottish Tribes of Jew
I can't comment on "lost tribes" but it is interesting that the oldest
continuously-practiced forms of both Judaism and Christianity
(Gnosticism) may both be found in Ethiopia. In regard to the "race" of
the Ethiopians, I am not aware of any DNA studies but anthropology has
generally classified them as being closer to "Caucasian" than to
"Negroid". My own suspicion is that they may represent the descendants
of the early Egyptians (since modern Egyptians are mostly Arabs).
Remember that the Egyptians and the Nubians engaged one another in
many different ways in ancient times; perhaps the Ethiopians represent
the merging of these two groups. The Ethiopian account that I have
heard as to why an ancient form of Judaism is practiced there is that
it is the location of the Ark of the Covenant and that the ark's
placement there brought the people into contact with (possibly
intermarrying with) Semitic Jews.
WJhonson@aol.com wrote in message news:<72BE8947.17B1A725.007FA2F6@aol.com>...
continuously-practiced forms of both Judaism and Christianity
(Gnosticism) may both be found in Ethiopia. In regard to the "race" of
the Ethiopians, I am not aware of any DNA studies but anthropology has
generally classified them as being closer to "Caucasian" than to
"Negroid". My own suspicion is that they may represent the descendants
of the early Egyptians (since modern Egyptians are mostly Arabs).
Remember that the Egyptians and the Nubians engaged one another in
many different ways in ancient times; perhaps the Ethiopians represent
the merging of these two groups. The Ethiopian account that I have
heard as to why an ancient form of Judaism is practiced there is that
it is the location of the Ark of the Covenant and that the ark's
placement there brought the people into contact with (possibly
intermarrying with) Semitic Jews.
WJhonson@aol.com wrote in message news:<72BE8947.17B1A725.007FA2F6@aol.com>...
"Talking about lost tribes of Israel, I seem to remember how several years ago Ethiopian negroes were migrated to Israel and that they were regarded as Jews, one of the lost tribes that had left Israel a long time ago. I find the word "tribe" confusing, as, probably, it was only a small number of people involved.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia"
Yes Leo, due to the war in Ethiopia and because they were persecuted somewhat. I wouldn't say they were a "lost tribe", but their form of Judaism is rather ancient. They are called Falasha. They are observant in pre-Talmudic Jewish traditions. That supports the theory that they came there quite some time ago, maybe even before the Second Temple era.
However the idea that they are "the lost tribe of Dan" has little to no support. A better theory is that they are a remnant from the temple on Elephantine, who fled to Ethiopia when that place was destoyed in 410 BC or within the next century when they disappear from history in that place.
Will
-
Doug McDonald
Re: Origins of Ethiopian Jews was Re: Scottish Tribes of Jew
Bronwen Edwards wrote:
There are plenty of DNA studies of the Ethiopians. I have looked
only at the Y- and mt-DNA ones during the production of
my DNA world maps. They are of mixed African-Middle Eastern stock.
The mixing in of the Middle-Eastern is more pronounced in
the female than the male lines. For references see the
bibliography of my maps at http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald.
Doug McDonald
I can't comment on "lost tribes" but it is interesting that the oldest
continuously-practiced forms of both Judaism and Christianity
(Gnosticism) may both be found in Ethiopia. In regard to the "race" of
the Ethiopians, I am not aware of any DNA studies
There are plenty of DNA studies of the Ethiopians. I have looked
only at the Y- and mt-DNA ones during the production of
my DNA world maps. They are of mixed African-Middle Eastern stock.
The mixing in of the Middle-Eastern is more pronounced in
the female than the male lines. For references see the
bibliography of my maps at http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald.
Doug McDonald
-
Matthew Rockefeller
Re: Origins of Ethiopian Jews was Re: Scottish Tribes of Jew
In my estimation, Bronwen, the Ethiopians are one of the most
interesting people in the world. They have a long history, and
apparently a Solomonid monarchy or should I say did. I think the
Ethiopians are a mix of Nubians, Egyptians, and Jews. Some of the
Jewish population was probably brought over with Menelik and maybe
others came over with King Zerah, an Ethopian king with a clearly
Jewish name, when he invaded.
Another country which claims a Jewish origin is Afghanistan. The
current King of Afghanistan, who is exiled, claims a male-line descent
from the Biblical King Saul.
Matthew
lostcooper@yahoo.com (Bronwen Edwards) wrote in message news:<54ca55f1.0411162327.23710ccb@posting.google.com>...
interesting people in the world. They have a long history, and
apparently a Solomonid monarchy or should I say did. I think the
Ethiopians are a mix of Nubians, Egyptians, and Jews. Some of the
Jewish population was probably brought over with Menelik and maybe
others came over with King Zerah, an Ethopian king with a clearly
Jewish name, when he invaded.
Another country which claims a Jewish origin is Afghanistan. The
current King of Afghanistan, who is exiled, claims a male-line descent
from the Biblical King Saul.
Matthew
lostcooper@yahoo.com (Bronwen Edwards) wrote in message news:<54ca55f1.0411162327.23710ccb@posting.google.com>...
I can't comment on "lost tribes" but it is interesting that the oldest
continuously-practiced forms of both Judaism and Christianity
(Gnosticism) may both be found in Ethiopia. In regard to the "race" of
the Ethiopians, I am not aware of any DNA studies but anthropology has
generally classified them as being closer to "Caucasian" than to
"Negroid". My own suspicion is that they may represent the descendants
of the early Egyptians (since modern Egyptians are mostly Arabs).
Remember that the Egyptians and the Nubians engaged one another in
many different ways in ancient times; perhaps the Ethiopians represent
the merging of these two groups. The Ethiopian account that I have
heard as to why an ancient form of Judaism is practiced there is that
it is the location of the Ark of the Covenant and that the ark's
placement there brought the people into contact with (possibly
intermarrying with) Semitic Jews.
WJhonson@aol.com wrote in message news:<72BE8947.17B1A725.007FA2F6@aol.com>...
"Talking about lost tribes of Israel, I seem to remember how several years ago Ethiopian negroes were migrated to Israel and that they were regarded as Jews, one of the lost tribes that had left Israel a long time ago. I find the word "tribe" confusing, as, probably, it was only a small number of people involved.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia"
Yes Leo, due to the war in Ethiopia and because they were persecuted somewhat. I wouldn't say they were a "lost tribe", but their form of Judaism is rather ancient. They are called Falasha. They are observant in pre-Talmudic Jewish traditions. That supports the theory that they came there quite some time ago, maybe even before the Second Temple era.
However the idea that they are "the lost tribe of Dan" has little to no support. A better theory is that they are a remnant from the temple on Elephantine, who fled to Ethiopia when that place was destoyed in 410 BC or within the next century when they disappear from history in that place.
Will
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Origins of Ethiopian Jews was Re: Scottish Tribes of Jew
Matthew Rockefeller wrote:
A grain of NaCl is always in order with such claims. The germanic kings
claimed descent from Priam of Troy, and were Trojanism still an
ethnicity, I am sure we would find pan-Trojanists claiming that various
peoples of the world were part Trojan because of this and other legends.
It appears likely that the Wessex royal origin traditions (in their
most elaborate form) date from the reign of Alfred the Great, and were
created to address the political imperative of his own time rather than
representing any authentic tradition of that era. The same is the
current scholarly opinion of the Solomonid claims of the Ethiopian
rulers, and is likely true of most such traditions (and I include here
the various medieval and modern royal (and recently non-royal) families
claiming descent from Solomon, Muhammad, Saul, Priam, Oden, Jesus, etc.).
taf
In my estimation, Bronwen, the Ethiopians are one of the most
interesting people in the world. They have a long history, and
apparently a Solomonid monarchy or should I say did. I think the
Ethiopians are a mix of Nubians, Egyptians, and Jews. Some of the
Jewish population was probably brought over with Menelik and maybe
others came over with King Zerah, an Ethopian king with a clearly
Jewish name, when he invaded.
Another country which claims a Jewish origin is Afghanistan. The
current King of Afghanistan, who is exiled, claims a male-line descent
from the Biblical King Saul.
A grain of NaCl is always in order with such claims. The germanic kings
claimed descent from Priam of Troy, and were Trojanism still an
ethnicity, I am sure we would find pan-Trojanists claiming that various
peoples of the world were part Trojan because of this and other legends.
It appears likely that the Wessex royal origin traditions (in their
most elaborate form) date from the reign of Alfred the Great, and were
created to address the political imperative of his own time rather than
representing any authentic tradition of that era. The same is the
current scholarly opinion of the Solomonid claims of the Ethiopian
rulers, and is likely true of most such traditions (and I include here
the various medieval and modern royal (and recently non-royal) families
claiming descent from Solomon, Muhammad, Saul, Priam, Oden, Jesus, etc.).
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Origins of Ethiopian Jews was Re: Scottish Tribes of Jew
Bearing in mind that "Menelik" is completely legendary of course. And you're assuming that he was ruler of Sheba (Saba) even though we have exactly zero contemporary references for any such event.
Will
In a message dated 11/17/2004 7:09:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com (Matthew Rockefeller) writes:
Will
In a message dated 11/17/2004 7:09:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com (Matthew Rockefeller) writes:
In my estimation, Bronwen, the Ethiopians are one of the most
interesting people in the world. They have a long history, and
apparently a Solomonid monarchy or should I say did. I think the
Ethiopians are a mix of Nubians, Egyptians, and Jews. Some of the
Jewish population was probably brought over with Menelik and maybe
others came over with King Zerah, an Ethopian king with a clearly
Jewish name, when he invaded.
Another country which claims a Jewish origin is Afghanistan. The
current King of Afghanistan, who is exiled, claims a male-line descent
from the Biblical King Saul.
Matthew
lostcooper@yahoo.com (Bronwen Edwards) wrote in message news:<54ca55f1.0411162327.23710ccb@posting.google.com>...
I can't comment on "lost tribes" but it is interesting that the oldest
continuously-practiced forms of both Judaism and Christianity
(Gnosticism) may both be found in Ethiopia. In regard to the "race" of
the Ethiopians, I am not aware of any DNA studies but anthropology has
generally classified them as being closer to "Caucasian" than to
"Negroid". My own suspicion is that they may represent the descendants
of the early Egyptians (since modern Egyptians are mostly Arabs).
Remember that the Egyptians and the Nubians engaged one another in
many different ways in ancient times; perhaps the Ethiopians represent
the merging of these two groups. The Ethiopian account that I have
heard as to why an ancient form of Judaism is practiced there is that
it is the location of the Ark of the Covenant and that the ark's
placement there brought the people into contact with (possibly
intermarrying with) Semitic Jews.
WJhonson@aol.com wrote in message news:<72BE8947.17B1A725.007FA2F6@aol.com>...
"Talking about lost tribes of Israel, I seem to remember how several years ago Ethiopian negroes were migrated to Israel and that they were regarded as Jews, one of the lost tribes that had left Israel a long time ago. I find the word "tribe" confusing, as, probably, it was only a small number of people involved.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia"
Yes Leo, due to the war in Ethiopia and because they were persecuted somewhat. I wouldn't say they were a "lost tribe", but their form of Judaism is rather ancient. They are called Falasha. They are observant in pre-Talmudic Jewish traditions. That supports the theory that they came there quite some time ago, maybe even before the Second Temple era.
However the idea that they are "the lost tribe of Dan" has little to no support. A better theory is that they are a remnant from the temple on Elephantine, who fled to Ethiopia when that place was destoyed in 410 BC or within the next century when they disappear from history in that place.
Will
-
norenxaq
Re: Origins of Ethiopian Jews was Re: Scottish Tribes of Jew
The same is the
current scholarly opinion of the Solomonid claims of the Ethiopian
rulers, and is likely true of most such traditions (and I include here
the various medieval and modern royal (and recently non-royal) families
claiming descent from Solomon, Muhammad, Saul, Priam, Oden, Jesus, etc.).
taf
re Mohammedan modern royal lines. which ones are you doubting and on what
basis?
-
Bronwen Edwards
Re: Origins of Ethiopian Jews was Re: Scottish Tribes of Jew
Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message news:<cnfl7p$gc3$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu>...
That would make sense given the matrilineal tradition of the Jews. Best, Bronwen
There are plenty of DNA studies of the Ethiopians. I have looked
only at the Y- and mt-DNA ones during the production of
my DNA world maps. They are of mixed African-Middle Eastern stock.
The mixing in of the Middle-Eastern is more pronounced in
the female than the male lines. For references see the
bibliography of my maps at http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald.
That would make sense given the matrilineal tradition of the Jews. Best, Bronwen
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Origins of Ethiopian Jews was Re: Scottish Tribes of Jew
norenxaq wrote:
From what I have seen, for example, that of the Agha Khan has some
portions that are 'murky', to say the least.
taf
The same is the
current scholarly opinion of the Solomonid claims of the Ethiopian
rulers, and is likely true of most such traditions (and I include here
the various medieval and modern royal (and recently non-royal) families
claiming descent from Solomon, Muhammad, Saul, Priam, Oden, Jesus, etc.).
taf
re Mohammedan modern royal lines. which ones are you doubting and on what
basis?
From what I have seen, for example, that of the Agha Khan has some
portions that are 'murky', to say the least.
taf