Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

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Matthew Rockefeller

Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 16 nov 2004 06:14:41

Just some food for thought and a gateway to further research.

I recently stumbled across some interesting information that can be
found here on the web as well
http://www.melungeons.com/articles/melu ... roject.htm

It discusses the possibility that clans Campbell, Stewart, Douglas,
Forbes, Gordon, and a couple others may be of Jewish origin. The DNA
testing done on members of these different clans gives them a
Mediterranean origin and possibiliy a Jewish one. The theory is that
William the Conqueror had the assistance of many Jews with him when
invading England and most of these families settled in Scotland. This
goes along with the research I have done and the continued research of
Orthodox Jewish scholar Yair Davidiy.

The fact is that red hair was both a royal and Semitic trait, and it
is well known in the Jewish world that King David had red hair. Ramses
the Great was discovered to have had red hair, along with other
Pharaohs. Many Jews, along with other Semites, in ancient times were
known to have red hair and many full-blooded Jews still have red hair.

A few months ago I was talking with a soldier stationed in northern
Iraq and he spoke of there being quite a few red heads there as well.

I, and I'm not alone, believe it was the partial Israelite origin of
some of the tribes in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales that gave them
their red hair. The Celts were a short, dark, and swarthy people and
the Vikings were tall and blond. Besides the evidence, there are even
stories of Joseph of Arimathea and a daughter of King Zedekiah coming
to the Celtic lands.

The legendary King Arthur was said to have been both a descendant of
Joseph of Arimathea and a red-head.

Matthew

Gjest

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 nov 2004 06:41:02

In a message dated 11/15/2004 9:16:02 PM Pacific Standard Time,
matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com writes:

http://www.melungeons.com/articles/melungeondnaproject.htm

Good grief. "The royal lion of Judah is connected with the lion of scotland
...."

Nice web site you picked. Maybe Michael Baigent is one of their authors ?
Hey perhaps this Scottish Jews came to America and intermarried with Indians
and space aliens!!! Oh my gosh! It's possible!

Gjest

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 nov 2004 07:01:01

Monday, 15 November, 2004



Dear Matthew,

I fear the site in question is the result of 'researchers'
with an agenda, or at least a precalculated result which their
'data' has validated; evidently every family involved in their
research has a Jewish origin, or Native American (Indian) ancestry
which traces back to a Jewish origin.

I note in the section for 'Moore', the author(s) write:

' This surname is common, so one must be very careful to
collect DNA from a known relative in order to determine
origins. This DNA sample is from a Moore family which
immigrated to Virginia in the early 1700's from England and
then came to live in Melungeon settlements in Appalachia.
We believe that many persons surnamed Moore, Muir, Morea
and Moorhead, received those names as a result of immigrating
to Britain from the Mediterranean, where Moro meant dark or
swarthy. Many were likely Sephardic Jews. They may also have
been Moors (i.e., Muslims) from Spain who left during the
Inquisition. '

Mór [Gaelic] means great, large, big & c., having nothing to
do with coloration. There were many families in Scotland named
Mure or Muir in the 13th century; there is also the well-known
Malcolm III, king of Scots, aka Máel Coluim Ceannmor [or Malcolm
'Canmore'], who died in 1093, well before any possible emigration
from Spain ca. 1492. Perhaps if the 'researchers' involved
could find that one document naming him as Malcolm mac Schwartz...

As to the 'discussion' on this site re: Jewish origins of the
Campbell, Douglas and other families, if it was the valid
contention of the author(s) that there were in fact ' several
Jewish families to assist him [William the Conqueror] in setting
up the civil administration of England ', they might be able to
actually identify one (maybe even more) such individuals who would
fit this description. Skipping a few centuries - easily done when
no documents need be examined or analyzed - we are told that 'Some
members of these families did practice Judaism once they had
immigrated to the American Colonies, lending support to the
proposal that some branches retained their Judaic affiliation.' I
would be interested (nay, ASTOUNDED) if even ONE such example
could be identified and documented.

The facts concerning these families are far more interesting
than the fiction that these 'researchers' are perpetrating.

Cheers,

John

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 16 nov 2004 07:21:42

Matthew Rockefeller wrote:
Just some food for thought and a gateway to further research.

I'll bite.

I recently stumbled across some interesting information that can be
found here on the web as well
http://www.melungeons.com/articles/melu ... roject.htm

It discusses the possibility that clans Campbell, Stewart, Douglas,
Forbes, Gordon, and a couple others may be of Jewish origin. The DNA
testing done on members of these different clans gives them a
Mediterranean origin and possibiliy a Jewish one.

Without seeing the data, you can't trust it - most people who draw these
conclusions don't understand the technology. That being said the site
says the DNA markers trace to the western Med. They then speculate
without foundation that it is Sephartic, rather than, say, Gothic
(recall that the Visigoths and Ostrogoths held sway in those regions),
or better, Roman. To speculate that this represents Sephartic DNA, one
then has to conclude that Sephartic Jews did not share a common heritage
with Semitic Jews (eastern Med.). That is fine, but then you can't say
that they represent continuity with the red hair in Semites, as you do
below.

The theory is that
William the Conqueror had the assistance of many Jews with him when
invading England and most of these families settled in Scotland.

Name one Jew that assisted William the Conqueror and then settled in
Scotland. Anyone can say anything in the gaps that the evidence fails
to provide detail, but each of these evidence-deprived theories is no
better than the next.

The fact is that red hair was both a royal

An occasional royal had red hair. An occasional non-royal had red hair.
I have seen nothing to suggest a pattern. Certainly, prior to the
Tudors, I know of just one English royal reputed to have had red hair.
In fact, it probably was the Tudors having red hair that first gave rise
to this supposed historical association.

and Semitic trait,

and an Irish trait, and a mulato trait, and a trait on some Polynesian
islands . . . .

and it
is well known in the Jewish world that King David had red hair.

Beware of things that are 'well known' about people who lived 3000 years
ago. Most of this 'knowledge' is a collection of later traditions,
suppositions and desires that have arisen surrounding someone about whom
there is little authentic knowledge.

Ramses
the Great was discovered to have had red hair, along with other
Pharaohs.

The reddening of hair is common in ancient burials, due to alterations
of the pigments over the intervening years - we don't really know
whether his hair was red or not.

Many Jews, along with other Semites, in ancient times were
known to have red hair and many full-blooded Jews still have red hair.

And many full-blooded non-Jews, and many mixed-blooded individuals of
varying backgrounds.

A few months ago I was talking with a soldier stationed in northern
Iraq and he spoke of there being quite a few red heads there as well.

I, and I'm not alone, believe it was the partial Israelite origin of
some of the tribes in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales that gave them
their red hair.

There is no real reason for this supposition - there is no "red hair
gene" that pops up every few generations. You intermix people with
blond hair and people with dark hair, and you will get various colors in
between, including red. Ireland, for example, has had so many different
groups coming through - pre-Celtic inhabitants, Celts, Vikings (and
their slaves brought from across the Scandinavian diaspora, ranging from
Slavs and Finns to Moors), Normans, Scots (coming back with a lot more
Pict blood than they left with) etc., etc., etc. that it would be
surprising if they didn't have some red hair.

The Celts were a short, dark, and swarthy people and
the Vikings were tall and blond.

These stereotypes are based on very little evidence, other than the
occasional description, and looking at their modern descendants (among
whom are the groups you are now claiming are not their descendants at
all, which sort of blows the whole thing). Anyhow, guess what happens
genetically when you mix dark-haired peoples with blond ones. You get
brown, and not infrequently, due to the assortment of the genes
directing hair pigment formation, it's variant, red.

Besides the evidence, there are even
stories of Joseph of Arimathea and a daughter of King Zedekiah coming
to the Celtic lands.

There are stories about all kinds of things - Earl Siward's grandmother
is supposed to have mated with a bear.

The legendary King Arthur was said to have been both a descendant of
Joseph of Arimathea and a red-head.

The legendary Arthur, including his hair color (any physical attribute,
for that matter) and various contradictory pedigrees, is exactly that -
a legend (and the fact that the red-haired Tudors claimed descent
probably gave rise to this particular one). As to the historical
Arthur, there is no indication of either his hair color or his pedigree,
and even his existence is doubted by some.

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 16 nov 2004 07:49:59

Therav3@aol.com wrote:

I fear the site in question is the result of 'researchers'
with an agenda, or at least a precalculated result which their
'data' has validated; evidently every family involved in their
research has a Jewish origin, or Native American (Indian) ancestry
which traces back to a Jewish origin.

I note in the section for 'Moore', the author(s) write:

' This surname is common, so one must be very careful to
collect DNA from a known relative in order to determine
origins. This DNA sample is from a Moore family which
immigrated to Virginia in the early 1700's from England and
then came to live in Melungeon settlements in Appalachia.
We believe that many persons surnamed Moore, Muir, Morea
and Moorhead, received those names as a result of immigrating
to Britain from the Mediterranean, where Moro meant dark or
swarthy. Many were likely Sephardic Jews. They may also have
been Moors (i.e., Muslims) from Spain who left during the
Inquisition. '

Mór [Gaelic] means great, large, big & c., having nothing to
do with coloration. There were many families in Scotland named
Mure or Muir in the 13th century; there is also the well-known
Malcolm III, king of Scots, aka Máel Coluim Ceannmor [or Malcolm
'Canmore'], who died in 1093, well before any possible emigration
from Spain ca. 1492. Perhaps if the 'researchers' involved
could find that one document naming him as Malcolm mac Schwartz...

A lot of Moores also derive from a toponymic usage - a geographic
description, in this case, the word which in modern English is "moor" -
this is a probable derivation of Moorhead as well (the fact that many
Moorhead families chose the heads of Moors as their arms notwithstanding).

The facts concerning these families are far more interesting
than the fiction that these 'researchers' are perpetrating.

Unfortunately, there has been a long-standing tendancy among
Tri-Racial-Isolate researchers to produce alternative scenarios for
their origins. Turkish, Jewish, Native American (who in turn are made
to be Turkish), and various other things. This goes on in spite of some
good genealogical work that has been done on some of the families
documenting their mulato roots, with a little bit of native American
thrown in, a unique cultural mix, interesting in its own right, that
arose on the colonial American frontier.

taf

Doug McDonald

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 16 nov 2004 16:48:38

Todd A. Farmerie wrote:

Without seeing the data, you can't trust it - most people who draw these
conclusions don't understand the technology. That being said the site
says the DNA markers trace to the western Med. They then speculate
without foundation that it is Sephartic, rather than, say, Gothic
(recall that the Visigoths and Ostrogoths held sway in those regions),
or better, Roman.


Well, I actually HAVE the Scottish part of the data, almost
650 DNA profiles. If give me numbers, I can compare.

That said, this supposedly refers to Sephardic. Ashkenazi
Jewish I know a little bit about. They, and the descendants
of Somerled, the MacDonalds, are haplogroup R1a. However,
there is a clear difference in haplotype between us and
them ... the split was very long ago, somwhere in
the Mideast of the eastern Mediterranean. The number of
R1a people in the Scottish clan study, which does not
contain MacDonalds, as we have our own study, is about 10
out of 500. In the MacDonalds it is about 30 out of 150.

Doug McDonald

Doug McDonald

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 16 nov 2004 18:10:10

GRHaleJr@aol.com wrote:
Weren't the Plantagenets also noted for red/reddish hair and coloration? I
recall that Foulques I "le Roux" Count of Anjou was nicknamed "leRoux", "the
red". Wouldn't this have thrown a tendency for the trait into the line?

"The Red" need not mean the guy had red hair, while even if he did, that
does not mean that his distant descendants (8 generations and more down
the line) did.

taf

D. Spencer Hines

Red-Headed English Monarchs

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 16 nov 2004 18:19:40

Several English Monarchs have been redheads.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Gjest

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 nov 2004 18:44:12

In a message dated 11/16/2004 1:23:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

An occasional royal had red hair. An occasional non-royal had red hair.
I have seen nothing to suggest a pattern. Certainly, prior to the
Tudors, I know of just one English royal reputed to have had red hair.
In fact, it probably was the Tudors having red hair that first gave rise
to this supposed historical association.






Weren't the Plantagenets also noted for red/reddish hair and coloration? I
recall that Foulques I "le Roux" Count of Anjou was nicknamed "leRoux", "the
red". Wouldn't this have thrown a tendency for the trait into the line?

Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas

Gordon Banks

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gordon Banks » 16 nov 2004 19:03:18

Before we go any further with this red hair = Jewish tommyrot, maybe we
should read something scientific about it. This was easily found using
Google:

http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/en/genome/gen ... 7f002.html

Gjest

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 nov 2004 21:09:42

In a message dated 11/16/2004 12:15:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

"The Red" need not mean the guy had red hair, while even if he did, that
does not mean that his distant descendants (8 generations and more down
the line) did.

taf




Oh, I agree to a certain extent with what you say. If, however, he did have
the gene for red hair wouldn't it be more likely that a larger percentage of
his descendants would have the same gene which could cause their hair to be
red.

Yes the red in the nickname could mean the skin coloration, much as my Reid
ancestry does. My coloration fits the genetic description almost perfectly,
although my hair was more "sandy red" than red, my beard was red. The
closest Reid ancestor was my great great grandmother, Mary Reid.

I think that is is almost certain that a person with the genes for red hair
and light colored skin will have more descendants of similar coloration, than
will a person with the genes for dark hair and dark skin.

Neither of my parents, by the way, were either lite skinned or red haired.

Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie,Texas

Gjest

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 nov 2004 21:24:14

"I think that is is almost certain that a person with the genes for red hair and light colored skin will have more descendants of similar coloration, than will a person with the genes for dark hair and dark skin."

First are you sure that having red hair is controlled by a single gene? Let us suppose that it is and that red hair is a recessive characteristic. That gene can be easily destroyed within two generations. However some people will have you believe that a specific trait like this can pass down dozens of generations intact. That is just facile.
It's called the "shortcut" to actually doing genealogy. I have red hair! I must be Irish! I have a dark complexion! I must be part American Indian!
It not correct genetics and its even worse genealogy.
Will

Gordon Banks

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gordon Banks » 16 nov 2004 22:12:09

Yes, it is a single gene. No, having red hair doesn't mean you are Irish
or Jewish or anything else, but that you have the gene. Please read the
article that I posted the link to earlier today.


On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 11:24, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
"I think that is is almost certain that a person with the genes for red hair and light colored skin will have more descendants of similar coloration, than will a person with the genes for dark hair and dark skin."

First are you sure that having red hair is controlled by a single gene? Let us suppose that it is and that red hair is a recessive characteristic. That gene can be easily destroyed within two generations. However some people will have you believe that a specific trait like this can pass down dozens of generations intact. That is just facile.
It's called the "shortcut" to actually doing genealogy. I have red hair! I must be Irish! I have a dark complexion! I must be part American Indian!
It not correct genetics and its even worse genealogy.
Will

Matthew Rockefeller

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 16 nov 2004 22:16:22

Thank you Todd and John for the comments. I'm glad to get information
from either side of the issue, which is why I posted it. I want to
make sure arguements are built on good evidence. I do not study DNA,
so to an extent I have to take the words of other researchers in these
matters and I like to check the facts first and hear any arguements
against the research.

My belief is that some of the lost tribes may have emigrated to
Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. That of course does not mean that any of
these families are descended in the male line from Sephardic Jews, and
perhaps not even in the male line from Jewish/Israelite families.

One major reason that English monarchs didn't have red hair is that
they were not descended from these probable Israelite ancestors, just
some folk in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales, not the Saxons and Normans.
It was in the Celtic world that red hair was considered royal, not the
English world. I believe Henry VIII was the only red-headed English
monarch, thanks to his noble Welsh ancestry. Who was the other one to
whom you reference, Todd?

Here http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/table ... title=HAIR
is a link to a study about Jewish hair color, in some instances there
were up to 4% of the population with red hair. Unfortunately the
research didn't include as many Sephardic Jews, although a few of them
who were polled had red hair.

The Bible/Tanakh refers to Esau and King David as having red hair.
There are traditions that the Tartars are descended from Esau, which
would explain Genghis Khan and family having red hair.

For those who have studied red hair they know it is more than simply a
hair color that was born out of mixture of brown and blond hair. It is
associated with melanocortin-1 receptor. Redheads are almost a
separate race in certain respects. For instance here
http://www.redandproud.com/Red%20Academ ... urgery.htm is
a story about how certain biological factors in redheads require them
to need more anaesthesia.

Matthew

Gjest

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 nov 2004 22:25:52

Yes and no on the possibility that a single gene MC1R is responsible for both red hair and fair, freckling skin.

Has this result been published in a standard genetics journal and peer-reviewed? Have other labs concurred with this finding? I note that the author is a "Professor of Dermatology", not exactly a specialist in genetics.

But regardless of these picky points :) wasn't Menelaus or somebody like that in the Iliad blonde ? or redhaired? We don't have people making statements like "I'm blonde ! I must be Greek!" So I think we agree that this line of reasoning is facile.

Matthew Rockefeller

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 16 nov 2004 22:34:12

Great, now we're on to something. This supports my theory that some of
the "Celts" are of Israelite origin. When I say Israelite origin I'm
refering to the lost tribes, not Jews coming over with the Conqueror
in 1066. So, there would have been a split much further back in
history instead of more recently.

Matthew



Well, I actually HAVE the Scottish part of the data, almost
650 DNA profiles. If give me numbers, I can compare.

That said, this supposedly refers to Sephardic. Ashkenazi
Jewish I know a little bit about. They, and the descendants
of Somerled, the MacDonalds, are haplogroup R1a. However,
there is a clear difference in haplotype between us and
them ... the split was very long ago, somwhere in
the Mideast of the eastern Mediterranean. The number of
R1a people in the Scottish clan study, which does not
contain MacDonalds, as we have our own study, is about 10
out of 500. In the MacDonalds it is about 30 out of 150.

Doug McDonald

Doug McDonald

Gordon Banks

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gordon Banks » 16 nov 2004 23:21:52

If you click on his "research interests" link at the bottom of the page,
you will see that he is a specialist in genetics, and you can also find
a link to his article in the Annual Reviews of Genetics, which probably
was peer-reviewed. He has worked with several people who are PhD
geneticists. Many academic medicine professors are also heavy into the
basic sciences.


On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 12:25, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Yes and no on the possibility that a single gene MC1R is responsible for both red hair and fair, freckling skin.

Has this result been published in a standard genetics journal and peer-reviewed? Have other labs concurred with this finding? I note that the author is a "Professor of Dermatology", not exactly a specialist in genetics.

But regardless of these picky points :) wasn't Menelaus or somebody like that in the Iliad blonde ? or redhaired? We don't have people making statements like "I'm blonde ! I must be Greek!" So I think we agree that this line of reasoning is facile.

Gjest

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 nov 2004 23:30:53

"My belief is that some of the lost tribes may have emigrated to Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. That of course does not mean that any of these families are descended in the male line from Sephardic Jews, and perhaps not even in the male line from Jewish/Israelite families."

And my belief is that the "lost tribes" is a modern-day myth favoring those who read the Bible literally and without recourse to actual archaeology. Of course lots of people make lots of money out of perpetuating the idea.

"One major reason that English monarchs didn't have red hair is that they were not descended from these probable Israelite ancestors, just some folk in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales, not the Saxons and Normans."

Circular reasoning. No need to say anything more.

"It was in the Celtic world that red hair was considered royal, not the English world."

Any chance to get a citation where you found this nugget of information?

"Here http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/table ... title=HAIR is a link to a study about Jewish hair color, in some instances there were up to 4% of the population with red hair. Unfortunately the research didn't include as many Sephardic Jews, although a few of them
who were polled had red hair."

I hate to break it to you, but the general (US) population has 5% redheads, Jewish or not.

Will

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 16 nov 2004 23:36:35

Matthew Rockefeller wrote:

My belief is that some of the lost tribes may have emigrated to
Ireland, Scotland, and Wales.

I just have to ask - what makes you think there are any 'lost tribes'?

Note that if you go back far enough, everyone is related, so a
relationship "a long time ago", in DNA terms, is like saying there
really is no relationship at all. (As an example, two people of the
same surname had their DNA tested, and rather than reporting it
accurately, they were told that they are related, but (small print) no
more related than any two people of English descent.

Who was the other one to
whom you reference, Todd?

William Rufus is reputed to have had red hair. Likewise, Mary I and
Elizabeth I had it, and IIRC, Edward VI.

The Bible/Tanakh refers to Esau and King David as having red hair.

You don't happen to have chapter and verse do you?

There are traditions that the Tartars are descended from Esau, which
would explain Genghis Khan and family having red hair.

This is starting to sound like an attempt to claim every peoples on the
planet as Jewish.

For those who have studied red hair they know it is more than simply a
hair color that was born out of mixture of brown and blond hair.

That is not what I meant - perhaps in trying to oversimplify things, the
important little details didn't get through - the point is that these
mutations are generally present in one population but rarely seen
because of the genetic background (it is 'masked'). It is when you mix
that you vary that background, enabling them to be displayed much more
frequently. (It is a long story, and I would rather not get into the
precise details - the point is that you cannot use one such physical
trait as a marker for "jewishness".

It is
associated with melanocortin-1 receptor.

Not entirely. In spite of what the previously cited web site says, the
man's own scientific papers tell a more complex version that his web
site oversimplified and in some cases misrepresents somewhat - perhaps
he just hasn't updated it recently enough. In his latest technical
review, he relates that MOST (not all) relates to this gene, and that
there are several distinct mutations, suggesting that it does not trace
back to a single mutation in a single group of peoples.

Redheads are almost a
separate race in certain respects. For instance here
http://www.redandproud.com/Red%20Academ ... urgery.htm is
a story about how certain biological factors in redheads require them
to need more anaesthesia.

Virtually every metabolic difference in metabolism carries with it
similar byproduct effects. "Low birth-weight" individuals are similarly
a different race, as they have a pattern of life-long differences in
risk factors and disease rates - they just don't advertise that equally
relevant pattern on top of their head. Basically, every human is a race
to themselves, having various combinations of the genetic and
environmental diversity of humanity, and any selection of a particular
characteristic or gene marker as being a critical difference that
divides people into 'races' is arbitrary (with the exception that there
is a clear and substantive difference between those with a functional
copy of the SRY gene and those without).

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 16 nov 2004 23:39:54

Gordon Banks wrote:
Yes, it is a single gene. . . . Please read the
article that I posted the link to earlier today.

Actually, no, it doesn't appear to be, as in his actual scientific
reports he only states that "most" cases re due to this gene, and
elsewhere that this is the only "known" gene. Now he might have just
been covering his tail, but it sounds like he is aware of cases which od
an unknown cause not associated with his gene.

taf

Doug McDonald

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 16 nov 2004 23:47:12

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

And my belief is that the "lost tribes" is a modern-day myth favoring those

who read the Bible literally and without recourse to actual archaeology.

Of course lots of people make lots of money out of perpetuating the idea.

One problem with debunking the "Lost Tribes" (which mostly
deserve it, of course) is the Lemba, a black tribe in southern
Africa, who claim male line descent from a "Lost Tribe of Israel",
and practice some Jewish things.

The "problem" is that when DNA tested, they proved indeed
to be, at about 50%, male line Cohanim Jews. This, is southern
Africa, is simply unheard of and, before this, unthinkable.

Note only do they have the correct SNP haplogroup ... that's
the unthinkable part ... they have the correct STR haplotype
too.

Doug McDonald

Ginny Wagner

Phillimore vol Suffolk 6707

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 17 nov 2004 00:13:28

Does anyone have:

Phillimore volume for Suffolk, for the 67th tenant in chief, and the 7th
manor within that section.

who would be willing to look up that page for me and either type/scan the
info and send it along?

The specific entry I'm looking for shows as:

Filius gorham, w, sf6707/441a

in Domesday Names by K.S.B. Keats-Rohan & David E. Thornton, Boydell Press,
1997, page 273.

Thank you ever so much in advance for any help forthcoming.

Virginia Gorham Wagner
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com

Leo van de Pas

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 17 nov 2004 00:46:09

Talking about lost tribes of Israel, I seem to remember how several years
ago Ethiopian negroes were migrated to Israel and that they were regarded as
Jews, one of the lost tribes that had left Israel a long time ago. I find
the word "tribe" confusing, as, probably, it was only a small number of
people involved.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin


"My belief is that some of the lost tribes may have emigrated to Ireland,
Scotland, and Wales. That of course does not mean that any of these families

are descended in the male line from Sephardic Jews, and perhaps not even in
the male line from Jewish/Israelite families."
And my belief is that the "lost tribes" is a modern-day myth favoring
those who read the Bible literally and without recourse to actual

archaeology. Of course lots of people make lots of money out of
perpetuating the idea.
"One major reason that English monarchs didn't have red hair is that they
were not descended from these probable Israelite ancestors, just some folk

in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales, not the Saxons and Normans."
Circular reasoning. No need to say anything more.

"It was in the Celtic world that red hair was considered royal, not the
English world."

Any chance to get a citation where you found this nugget of information?

"Here
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/table ... title=HAIR

is a link to a study about Jewish hair color, in some instances there were
up to 4% of the population with red hair. Unfortunately the research didn't
include as many Sephardic Jews, although a few of them
who were polled had red hair."

I hate to break it to you, but the general (US) population has 5%
redheads, Jewish or not.

Will


Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 17 nov 2004 00:53:57

In article <41999c2d@news.ColoState.EDU>,
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:

The fact is that red hair was both a royal

<...>

Besides the evidence, there are even
stories of Joseph of Arimathea and a daughter of King Zedekiah coming
to the Celtic lands.

There are stories about all kinds of things - Earl Siward's grandmother
is supposed to have mated with a bear.

A red-haired bear?

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Leo van de Pas

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 17 nov 2004 01:17:30

Dear Todd,

In "Your Family Tree" by Jordan and Kimball, originally published in 1929, a
book I adore because of the foreword, a remark is made that everyone with
Anglo-Saxon blood is related to others with Anglo-Saxon blood, at the most
33 (I think) generations removed. Lets make that for today 35-36
generations.

Which really means that a VERY big part of the worlds population is
"closely" related.
The fun is finding out how---and I am having that fun :-)
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin


Matthew Rockefeller wrote:

My belief is that some of the lost tribes may have emigrated to
Ireland, Scotland, and Wales.

I just have to ask - what makes you think there are any 'lost tribes'?

Note that if you go back far enough, everyone is related, so a
relationship "a long time ago", in DNA terms, is like saying there
really is no relationship at all. (As an example, two people of the
same surname had their DNA tested, and rather than reporting it
accurately, they were told that they are related, but (small print) no
more related than any two people of English descent.

Who was the other one to
whom you reference, Todd?

William Rufus is reputed to have had red hair. Likewise, Mary I and
Elizabeth I had it, and IIRC, Edward VI.

The Bible/Tanakh refers to Esau and King David as having red hair.

You don't happen to have chapter and verse do you?

There are traditions that the Tartars are descended from Esau, which
would explain Genghis Khan and family having red hair.

This is starting to sound like an attempt to claim every peoples on the
planet as Jewish.

For those who have studied red hair they know it is more than simply a
hair color that was born out of mixture of brown and blond hair.

That is not what I meant - perhaps in trying to oversimplify things, the
important little details didn't get through - the point is that these
mutations are generally present in one population but rarely seen
because of the genetic background (it is 'masked'). It is when you mix
that you vary that background, enabling them to be displayed much more
frequently. (It is a long story, and I would rather not get into the
precise details - the point is that you cannot use one such physical
trait as a marker for "jewishness".

It is
associated with melanocortin-1 receptor.

Not entirely. In spite of what the previously cited web site says, the
man's own scientific papers tell a more complex version that his web
site oversimplified and in some cases misrepresents somewhat - perhaps
he just hasn't updated it recently enough. In his latest technical
review, he relates that MOST (not all) relates to this gene, and that
there are several distinct mutations, suggesting that it does not trace
back to a single mutation in a single group of peoples.

Redheads are almost a
separate race in certain respects. For instance here
http://www.redandproud.com/Red%20Academ ... urgery.htm is
a story about how certain biological factors in redheads require them
to need more anaesthesia.

Virtually every metabolic difference in metabolism carries with it
similar byproduct effects. "Low birth-weight" individuals are similarly
a different race, as they have a pattern of life-long differences in
risk factors and disease rates - they just don't advertise that equally
relevant pattern on top of their head. Basically, every human is a race
to themselves, having various combinations of the genetic and
environmental diversity of humanity, and any selection of a particular
characteristic or gene marker as being a critical difference that
divides people into 'races' is arbitrary (with the exception that there
is a clear and substantive difference between those with a functional
copy of the SRY gene and those without).

taf



Gjest

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 nov 2004 01:24:23

"One problem with debunking the "Lost Tribes" (which mostly
deserve it, of course) is the Lemba, a black tribe in southern
Africa, who claim male line descent from a "Lost Tribe of Israel", and practice some Jewish things. The "problem" is that when DNA tested, they proved indeed to be, at about 50%, male line Cohanim Jews. This, is southern Africa, is simply unheard of and, before this, unthinkable."

Sorry Doug, no matter how much I might respect your work otherwise ;) a statement like the above can't go unchallenged. So you have a link? And shouldn't it be spelt Kohan ?
Will

Doug McDonald

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 17 nov 2004 01:39:37

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
"One problem with debunking the "Lost Tribes" (which mostly
deserve it, of course) is the Lemba, a black tribe in southern
Africa, who claim male line descent from a "Lost Tribe of Israel", and practice some Jewish things. The "problem" is that when DNA tested, they proved indeed to be, at about 50%, male line Cohanim Jews. This, is southern Africa, is simply unheard of and, before this, unthinkable."

Sorry Doug, no matter how much I might respect your work otherwise ;)
a statement like the above can't go unchallenged. So you have a link?
And shouldn't it be spelt Kohan ?
Will



The main paper is American Journal of Human Genetics,
vol. 66, pp 674-686, (2000)

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/j ... 88.web.pdf

This is an old paper by the standards of genetic genealogy,
and is sorely deficient in the number of markers, both SNP and STR.
Even today the "professional population" people use too few markers,
compared to the genealogists, and thus their conclusions
are less clear.

Nevertheless, when you look at the paper, the main haplotype
shared between the Lemba and the Jews turns out to be
haplogroup J, which is where the Cohanim modal haplotype is.
(And at least in the genealogy business, it seems to always be
spelled Cohanim.)

Today the thesis of this paper is well accepted. In any case,
what was "unthinkable" was a non-E, non-A, non-B haplogroup
native man in Southern Afirca. In Ethiopia, yes, there are several
percent of J, but not in South Africa.

See http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald for a haplogroup map (and,
for the curious, a picture of me. I'm an R1a Viking :-) :-) )

Doug McDonald

Gjest

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 nov 2004 03:01:06

In a message dated 11/16/2004 2:25:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:

First are you sure that having red hair is controlled by a single gene? Let
us suppose that it is and that red hair is a recessive characteristic. That
gene can be easily destroyed within two generations. However some people
will have you believe that a specific trait like this can pass down dozens of
generations intact. That is just facile.
It's called the "shortcut" to actually doing genealogy. I have red hair! I
must be Irish! I have a dark complexion! I must be part American Indian!
It not correct genetics and its even worse genealogy.
Will



At present I don't think that it is known whether the gene (the recent
reference on this site more or less advised that it was a singe gene) is
recessive. I am making no assumptions except that which I have noted in my life. It
seems that families with red haired, light skinned children, continue to have
red haired, light skinned children. Every time? All the tiem? Certainly
not, but more than other families. In my mind that would indicate that the
gene is dominant rather than recessive.

I guarantee you that some specific traits can, indeed, pass down many
generations. I used to breed show pigeons. There were certain traits for
instance, head shape, that had remained the same for over a hundred generations.

There are likely natural genetic laws which we do not at this time know
which determine when, where and even how much a particular gene will affect a new
being in our completely polyglot race.

Some genes cannot be destroyed. Regardless of the number of generations.
It depends upon the gene and in the situation in each instance.

Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas

I could say I was Irish because of the many Irish ancestors I have, Malones,
Reids, McDowells, Meadors, Flynns, but I would rather say I am an American
citizen with Irish ancestors.

Gjest

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 nov 2004 03:27:01

In a message dated 11/16/2004 5:53:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

It is a long story, and I would rather not get into the
precise details - the point is that you cannot use one such physical
trait as a marker for "jewishness".






Right, right, damn right. Or Irishness, or Frenchness, or Germaness, or any
other ness. There are all varieties in nearly every nationality of people.
This is what happens when a certain part of the male anatomy has no
conscience.

Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas

Sally Laine

Red Hair

Legg inn av Sally Laine » 17 nov 2004 03:49:22

Elizabeth I, of course she was daughter of Henry VIII but she herself had no
descendants

Sally


----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Rockefeller" <matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin


Thank you Todd and John for the comments. I'm glad to get information
from either side of the issue, which is why I posted it. I want to
make sure arguements are built on good evidence. I do not study DNA,
so to an extent I have to take the words of other researchers in these
matters and I like to check the facts first and hear any arguements
against the research.

My belief is that some of the lost tribes may have emigrated to
Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. That of course does not mean that any of
these families are descended in the male line from Sephardic Jews, and
perhaps not even in the male line from Jewish/Israelite families.

One major reason that English monarchs didn't have red hair is that
they were not descended from these probable Israelite ancestors, just
some folk in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales, not the Saxons and Normans.
It was in the Celtic world that red hair was considered royal, not the
English world. I believe Henry VIII was the only red-headed English
monarch, thanks to his noble Welsh ancestry. Who was the other one to
whom you reference, Todd?

Here
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/table ... title=HAIR
is a link to a study about Jewish hair color, in some instances there
were up to 4% of the population with red hair. Unfortunately the
research didn't include as many Sephardic Jews, although a few of them
who were polled had red hair.

The Bible/Tanakh refers to Esau and King David as having red hair.
There are traditions that the Tartars are descended from Esau, which
would explain Genghis Khan and family having red hair.

For those who have studied red hair they know it is more than simply a
hair color that was born out of mixture of brown and blond hair. It is
associated with melanocortin-1 receptor. Redheads are almost a
separate race in certain respects. For instance here
http://www.redandproud.com/Red%20Academ ... urgery.htm is
a story about how certain biological factors in redheads require them
to need more anaesthesia.

Matthew

Bronwen Edwards

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Bronwen Edwards » 17 nov 2004 08:37:46

Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message news:<cnd7gp$nvo$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu>...

Well, I actually HAVE the Scottish part of the data, almost
650 DNA profiles. If give me numbers, I can compare.

That said, this supposedly refers to Sephardic. Ashkenazi
Jewish I know a little bit about. They, and the descendants
of Somerled, the MacDonalds, are haplogroup R1a. However,
there is a clear difference in haplotype between us and
them ... the split was very long ago, somwhere in
the Mideast of the eastern Mediterranean. The number of
R1a people in the Scottish clan study, which does not
contain MacDonalds, as we have our own study, is about 10
out of 500. In the MacDonalds it is about 30 out of 150.

Doug McDonald

Doug McDonald

Isn't there a migration account in the Scandinavian countries linking
the ancient Yngling Dynasty to migrants from Constantinople? Also, I
have read any number of books that place the origin of the Picts near
the Black Sea. Although probably not provable, it always intrigues me
when traditional origin accounts dovetail from different directions.

Gjest

Re: Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 nov 2004 09:50:52

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Well obviously - and extremely cuddly!
Merilyn
From: Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net
Date: 17/11/2004 10:53:57
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin



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Gjest

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 nov 2004 12:21:55

Dear Doug and Leo:

WJhonson@aol.com writes:

"I wouldn't say they were a "lost tribe", but their form of Judaism is rather
ancient." "They are called Falasha. They are observant in pre-Talmudic
Jewish traditions." "That supports the theory that they came there quite some
time ago, maybe even" "before the Second Temple era."


This would seem to tie the Falasha' origins
to the time of Menelik I, legendary founder of the
Ethiopian royal family, reputedly the son of King
Solomon and the Queen of Sheba. IIRC, there is
good archaeological evidence for trade and immi-
gration ties between the Yemen (Sabian kingdom)
and Ethiopia at approximately the time of Solomon
and the First Temple.

The account of Philip the evangelist and the
Ethiopian eunuch in the Book of Acts would also
seem to indicate that Judaism was being practiced
in Ethiopia, at least in court circles, in the mid-First
Century C.E.

But the Falasha are a rather more humble lot,
aren't they ? Does it seem that, whatever its route,
Judaism may have been widely practiced in Ethiopian
society ?

Best regards, Steve

Doug McDonald

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 17 nov 2004 15:03:44

Bronwen Edwards wrote:


Isn't there a migration account in the Scandinavian countries linking
the ancient Yngling Dynasty to migrants from Constantinople?

I was not aware of that. The MacDonalds are of Viking origin.

Now where did these people come from before they were Vikings?
That is the questions. We are R1a. R1a is most common in
Scandanavia, Eastern Europe, India, especially Pakistan
especially among the tribes where bin Landen is hiding where it
approaches 100%, Krygyzstan, and the Altai mountains.
The specific MacDonald haplotype and related ones is suspected to be
that of the Ynglings. It is present only in northern locales, from
Iceland to the Altai. There are ongoing DNA studies about the
origins of the MacDonalds and Ynglings, but I can't say much
yest, both because I 'm not supposed to and because the results
are just too preliminary to trust. From the DNA we as yet have no idea
where the origin of the haplotype was. R1a itself
is supposed to have originated among the original Indo-European
language speakers of the Caucusus.

See the genealogy-dna mailing list on rootsweb.com.

Doug McDonald

Gjest

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 nov 2004 18:41:02

In a message dated 11/17/2004 11:08:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, WJhonson
writes:

In a message dated 11/16/2004 5:01:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
GRHaleJr@aol.com writes:


It seems that families with red haired, light skinned children, continue to
have
red haired, light skinned children.


Sorry this makes no sense. If red hair was dominant, we'd have 70% redheads
in the US instead of 5%. Instead, we have 70% brown-hair, which is the
dominant color.
The melting pot of the US, magnifies the dominant trait of the European dna
pool. Sure if you have two parents who are BOTH red-headed you're going to
get more red-headed children than normal, but it's false that they are all
going to have red hair.
Will



OK Will, I am neither a trained geneticist nor an expert in genetics. I
have noticed that certain colorations of the skin and hair are more prevalent in
some families than in others. I don't know if the gene/genes concerned are
dominant or recessive. All I can go by is what I have seen with my own eyes.


Do you dispute that some families have more red haired, light skinned
children, and that such families have done this for generations? OK, if you
dispute that, do you dispute that families who have more very dark skinned, kinky
haired children will likely continue to have such children, and have done so
for generations?

Sure, there are exceptions. There can always be a sport. But like normally
produces like. Or do you dispute that also?

I also stated that both my mother and father were dark haired. On the other
hand some of the members of both my mother's and father's family are/were
reddish haired, light skinned. That oughta skin the cat.

Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas

Gjest

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 nov 2004 19:11:01

In a message dated 11/16/2004 5:01:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
GRHaleJr@aol.com writes:

It seems that families with red haired, light skinned children, continue
to have
red haired, light skinned children.

Sorry this makes no sense. If red hair was dominant, we'd have 70% redheads
in the US instead of 5%. Instead, we have 70% brown-hair, which is the
dominant color.
The melting pot of the US, magnifies the dominant trait of the European
dna pool. Sure if you have two parents who are BOTH red-headed you're going to
get more red-headed children than normal, but it's false that they are all
going to have red hair.
Will

Gjest

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 nov 2004 19:21:01

In a message dated 11/17/2004 9:36:47 AM Pacific Standard Time,
GRHaleJr@aol.com writes:

Do you dispute that some families have more red haired, light skinned
children, and that such families have done this for generations?

The point is not whether it's ever happened. Of course it has.
The point is does it always happen, and the answer to that is no.
"Families" are composed of at least two persons who each contibute DNA to
each child, this DNA is not identical for each child, which is why all your
siblings are not identical to each other.
Now if one sibling can have green eyes and the next have hazel eyes, there
is no reason to assume that one can have red hair and the next have brown
hair or blonde hair for that matter. You would have to assume that every blonde
only marries other blondes or every red only marries other reds in order to
assure that every child of theirs carries the exact same hair color.
Are you going to postulate that Henry VIII only ever married red-heads?
If you are not, then you have to agree that his children could carry the color
of their mother's head or some other likely DNA combination. Was Edward VI,
Mary I, and Elizabeth I all red-headed? If not, why not. That's the issue for
you to reason out.
Will

Gjest

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 nov 2004 19:31:01

In a message dated 11/17/2004 2:22:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, DPCP1@aol.com
writes:

This would seem to tie the Falasha' origins to the time of Menelik I,
legendary founder of the Ethiopian royal family, reputedly the son of King Solomon
and the Queen of Sheba. IIRC, there is good archaeological evidence for
trade and immi-
gration ties between the Yemen (Sabian kingdom) and Ethiopia at
approximately the time of Solomon and the First Temple.

There is no archaeological proof that there were Jews in Ethiopia during the
time of the First Temple. The only indication is the holy book Kegra Negast
which only exists from the 16th century as far as we know. They have the
legend that they have the Ark but it's closely guarded in the temple that only one
person can ever see it. So it's not likely we're going to know the answer
anytime soon.
So while we can say they were probably there by the 3rd to 1st century
BC, we cannot say they were there during the 9th century BC or whenever you feel
Solomon reigned.

Terry

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Terry » 17 nov 2004 20:41:01

Just by way of information, my mother was firstly married to a person with
red hair, my mother has dark hair as did both of her parents, she had two
children from that marriage both with bright red hair!
Terry

----- Original Message -----
From: <GRHaleJr@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin


In a message dated 11/17/2004 11:08:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, WJhonson
writes:

In a message dated 11/16/2004 5:01:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
GRHaleJr@aol.com writes:


It seems that families with red haired, light skinned children, continue
to
have
red haired, light skinned children.


Sorry this makes no sense. If red hair was dominant, we'd have 70%
redheads
in the US instead of 5%. Instead, we have 70% brown-hair, which is the
dominant color.
The melting pot of the US, magnifies the dominant trait of the European
dna
pool. Sure if you have two parents who are BOTH red-headed you're going
to
get more red-headed children than normal, but it's false that they are
all
going to have red hair.
Will



OK Will, I am neither a trained geneticist nor an expert in genetics. I
have noticed that certain colorations of the skin and hair are more
prevalent in
some families than in others. I don't know if the gene/genes concerned
are
dominant or recessive. All I can go by is what I have seen with my own
eyes.


Do you dispute that some families have more red haired, light skinned
children, and that such families have done this for generations? OK, if
you
dispute that, do you dispute that families who have more very dark
skinned, kinky
haired children will likely continue to have such children, and have done
so
for generations?

Sure, there are exceptions. There can always be a sport. But like
normally
produces like. Or do you dispute that also?

I also stated that both my mother and father were dark haired. On the
other
hand some of the members of both my mother's and father's family are/were
reddish haired, light skinned. That oughta skin the cat.

Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas



Gordon Banks

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gordon Banks » 17 nov 2004 21:01:01

Is there any ethnic group in the world that someone hasn't proposed were
the remnants of the "lost tribes?"


On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 13:34, Matthew Rockefeller wrote:
Great, now we're on to something. This supports my theory that some of
the "Celts" are of Israelite origin. When I say Israelite origin I'm
refering to the lost tribes, not Jews coming over with the Conqueror
in 1066. So, there would have been a split much further back in
history instead of more recently.

Gjest

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 nov 2004 21:01:01

In a message dated 11/17/2004 1:08:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:

but it's false that they are all
going to have red hair.
Will



I don't recall ANYONE making such a statement, particularly myself. Red
hair is predominant in some areas and in some families, just as very dark skin
is predominant in some areas (namely Africa), and in some families. There are
even albinos known in Africa, so nothing is ALL. Why? Beats the hell out
of me, but it is SO, no matter what your "science" might say on this subject.
I suspect that it is in the GENES. Don't you?

Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas

Please do not read into my message that I am condemning all science. That
is neither my belief nor intention. Science, however, cannot always be right
in the face of visable evidence.

Gjest

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 nov 2004 21:11:01

In a message dated 11/17/2004 1:14:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:

Are you going to postulate that Henry VIII only ever married red-heads?
If you are not, then you have to agree that his children could carry the
color
of their mother's head or some other likely DNA combination. Was Edward VI,
Mary I, and Elizabeth I all red-headed? If not, why not. That's the issue
for
you to reason out.
Will



You are arguing against the wind. I have never said that all offspring of
any particular mating would have red hair. I suspect that you could have only
red haired children for 10 generations and then all of a sudden a "sport"
would show up who would be "green haired". There is nothing "always" in
genetics in so far as I have been able to determine, certainly not hair color. If
two darkhaired people, such as my mother and father, can throw a person such
as myself with sandy red hair and light colored skin, then it is certainly
possible for two red haired people to throw a dark haired offspring. In fact
it occurs more often than not I would think.

Red hair and light skin is not a predominant portion of any population.
There are, however, populations around the world which have a larger percentage
of red haired, light skinned people than other populations.

That is what I have been saying all the time and you want to change my
statements to mean that red hair and light skin is ALWAYS predominant. I did not
say that. I will not say that. I think you either need to learn how to read
or how to understand what you have read. If you can produce ANY message of
min in which I have stated that any skin coloration or hair color is going to
always be then I will apologize.

There, that's a good offer for you.

Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas

Gjest

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 nov 2004 21:21:01

This thread has gone too far afield from the original point and some people can't seem to get back to it, or understand it. So this will be my last post on it.
Will

Ginny Wagner

RE: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 17 nov 2004 21:21:01

Isn't this simple biology? Red Hair being a recessive gene it will produce
its characteristic phenotype only when its allele is identical. Thus, if a
gene for black and a gene for red exist, the hair will be black but will
still have that recessive red-haired gene to pass along. If the black
haired, recessively red-haired mates with a red-haired (two red-haired
genes), then the chances are 50% that the child will have red hair and 50%
that the child will have black hair.

It is merely chance that your mother didn't have a black-haired child. We
each pass one of our two chromosomes along through either egg or sperm which
carries one gene for hair color (among other traits). The baby gets one
hair color gene from each parent.

Black hair will dominate red hair if the two exist so your mother must have
passed a recessive (non-showing) red-haired gene and her husband, having red
hair, had only red-haired genes to pass since if he'd had black haired he
would have had black hair himself.

Thus, it depended upon whether your mother's recessive or dominant gene was
passed as to whether the child was red or black haired. At least, that was
the biology I was taught back in the 1960s. There may be more advanced
knowledge these days.

Does anyone know if "fair" Geoffrey Plantanganet was blonde or red haired?

norenxaq

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av norenxaq » 18 nov 2004 01:41:02

Gordon Banks wrote:

Is there any ethnic group in the world that someone hasn't proposed were
the remnants of the "lost tribes?"



perhaps the aboriginees?

Terry

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Terry » 18 nov 2004 02:51:02

Just wondering, most countries have or had aboriginal tribes.
----- Original Message -----
From: "norenxaq" <norenxaq@san.rr.com>
To: "Terry" <terry@mairsphotography.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin



Terry wrote:

Of which country?
Terry

Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: "norenxaq" <norenxaq@san.rr.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin



Gordon Banks wrote:

Is there any ethnic group in the world that someone hasn't proposed
were
the remnants of the "lost tribes?"



perhaps the aboriginees?







Bronwen Edwards

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Bronwen Edwards » 18 nov 2004 05:48:35

How does the Scandinavian/MacDonald marker distribute itself around
areas visited by the Vikings? It would seem that the oral and written
traditions of Britain on the MacDonald origin fit neatly with the
biological findings. In regard to Scandinavian links with Byzantium,
there was much trading on the Danube and Volga rivers, with the
Scandinavians being the travelers. It would not be that much of a
stretch for (1) the Scandinavians, in admiration perhaps of Byzantine
grandeur, to dig up a legend that makes them related or (2) for an
actual person from Constantinople to have traveled north and become
semi-deified. The accounts I have seen say that this was the prolific
"Woden", not only a god but also the literal father of virtually every
dynasty speaking a Germanic language. It can be interesting to see how
oral accounts and mythology do or do not mesh with empirical evidence
(either directly or metaphorically).There are also amusing
descriptions of the Scandinavian traders written by Arabs that have
been preserved and printed in anthropology textbooks. In general, the
Arabs were horrified at such things as table manners...at several
points in my own family history I have some MacDonalds as well. Best,
Bronwen

Doug McDonald

Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 18 nov 2004 18:05:25

Bronwen Edwards wrote:
How does the Scandinavian/MacDonald marker distribute itself around
areas visited by the Vikings? It would seem that the oral and written
traditions of Britain on the MacDonald origin fit neatly with the
biological findings. In regard to Scandinavian links with Byzantium,
there was much trading on the Danube and Volga rivers, with the
Scandinavians being the travelers. It would not be that much of a
stretch for (1) the Scandinavians, in admiration perhaps of Byzantine
grandeur, to dig up a legend that makes them related or (2) for an
actual person from Constantinople to have traveled north and become
semi-deified.


Well, the MacDonald signature itself, within R1a, is restircted
to Scotland, the Isles (obviously!) [of Scotland], and
Norway. A very closely related line is common in Iceland. This
of course neglects people in the south of Britain and in
Northern Ireland and in America, who are certainly descendants
of Scots. But relatively closely related lines are present
all over northern (but not southern) Scandanavia,
and Kola. The next closest lines are in Poland and the Altai
mountains near Mongolia. At this point I shall not speculate more,
since the two critical markers, especially YCAIIb, which is 21 in
the McDonalds rather than the more common 23, has not yet been run
in many populations.

Doug

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