In Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, page 214 (I know) we find
William FitzWarine, called Le Frere, was elevated to the peerage as a Baron, by writ of summons, dated 25 February 1342. He married Amicia Haddon, died in 1361 and was succeeded by his son
Ivo or John Fitz-Warine, 2nd Baron but was never summoned to parliament. He died in 1414, he married (no name mentioned) and had an only daughter and heiress, Eleanor.
This family is only touched upon by the Complete Peerage, Volume V, pages 512,513
It starts with Sir William FitzWarin, le frere, who was summoned to council, 25 February 1341/1342, he died of pestilence 28 October or 3 November 1361 and was buried at Wantage.
The Council which summoned him, is described as "incorrectly described as a Parliament by Dugdale and others." In other words, he was not a Baron, and therefor his son is not mentioned at all. I could find no mention in Volume XIV.
In the Complete Peerage Volume I page 197 (thanks Robert O'Connor) we find Maud de Argentine who married Sir Ives FitzWarin. Apparently she was married before but only had issue by her second husband Sir Ives/Ivo FitzWarin. Is this Maud the wife not mentioned by the Extinct Peerage? In which case she is the mother of Eleanor, mentioned above.
Can anyone confirm this?
By the way, this Eleanor has descendants with links to the USA
Charles Calvert, 3rd Lord Baltimore
Maria Joanna Somerset
John Nelson
John Alston
Hon. Robert Monckton
Lord Charles Greville Montagu
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
John Steele Gordon
as well, she is an ancestor of Prince William of Wales.
Hope someone can help.
With many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
FitzWarine puzzle
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Patti Metsch
Re: FitzWarine puzzle
See URL:
http://www.britannia.com/bios/gents/wfitzwarin.html
and
http://www.britannia.com/bios/gents/ifitzwarin.html
It cites George Frederick Beltz's _Memorials of the Most Noble Order of the
Garter_ (1861). Perhaps review of Beltz work and its sources might provide
additional substantiation of the stated relationships.
Patti Metsch
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:49 PM
Subject: FitzWarine puzzle
died in 1361 and was succeeded by his son
heiress, Eleanor.
November 1361 and was buried at Wantage.
and therefor his son is not mentioned at all. I could find no mention in
Volume XIV.
before but only had issue by her second husband Sir Ives/Ivo FitzWarin. Is
this Maud the wife not mentioned by the Extinct Peerage? In which case she
is the mother of Eleanor, mentioned above.
http://www.britannia.com/bios/gents/wfitzwarin.html
and
http://www.britannia.com/bios/gents/ifitzwarin.html
It cites George Frederick Beltz's _Memorials of the Most Noble Order of the
Garter_ (1861). Perhaps review of Beltz work and its sources might provide
additional substantiation of the stated relationships.
Patti Metsch
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:49 PM
Subject: FitzWarine puzzle
In Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, page 214 (I know) we find
William FitzWarine, called Le Frere, was elevated to the peerage as a
Baron, by writ of summons, dated 25 February 1342. He married Amicia Haddon,
died in 1361 and was succeeded by his son
Ivo or John Fitz-Warine, 2nd Baron but was never summoned to parliament.
He died in 1414, he married (no name mentioned) and had an only daughter and
heiress, Eleanor.
This family is only touched upon by the Complete Peerage, Volume V, pages
512,513
It starts with Sir William FitzWarin, le frere, who was summoned to
council, 25 February 1341/1342, he died of pestilence 28 October or 3
November 1361 and was buried at Wantage.
The Council which summoned him, is described as "incorrectly described as
a Parliament by Dugdale and others." In other words, he was not a Baron,
and therefor his son is not mentioned at all. I could find no mention in
Volume XIV.
In the Complete Peerage Volume I page 197 (thanks Robert O'Connor) we find
Maud de Argentine who married Sir Ives FitzWarin. Apparently she was married
before but only had issue by her second husband Sir Ives/Ivo FitzWarin. Is
this Maud the wife not mentioned by the Extinct Peerage? In which case she
is the mother of Eleanor, mentioned above.
Can anyone confirm this?
By the way, this Eleanor has descendants with links to the USA
Charles Calvert, 3rd Lord Baltimore
Maria Joanna Somerset
John Nelson
John Alston
Hon. Robert Monckton
Lord Charles Greville Montagu
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
John Steele Gordon
as well, she is an ancestor of Prince William of Wales.
Hope someone can help.
With many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
-
Chris Phillips
Re: FitzWarine puzzle
Leo van de Pas wrote:
before but only had issue by her second husband Sir Ives/Ivo FitzWarin. Is
this Maud the wife not mentioned by the Extinct Peerage? In which case she
is the mother of Eleanor, mentioned above.
Yes, I believe this is correct. Eleanor was the daughter of Maud by Sir Ives
FitzWarin. Maud had previously been married to Richard de Merton (see the
thread entitled "FitzWarine - Argentan", from February 2003).
Chris Phillips
In the Complete Peerage Volume I page 197 (thanks Robert O'Connor) we find
Maud de Argentine who married Sir Ives FitzWarin. Apparently she was married
before but only had issue by her second husband Sir Ives/Ivo FitzWarin. Is
this Maud the wife not mentioned by the Extinct Peerage? In which case she
is the mother of Eleanor, mentioned above.
Can anyone confirm this?
Yes, I believe this is correct. Eleanor was the daughter of Maud by Sir Ives
FitzWarin. Maud had previously been married to Richard de Merton (see the
thread entitled "FitzWarine - Argentan", from February 2003).
Chris Phillips
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: FitzWarine puzzle
Dear Leo ~
Thank you for your good post.
Sir William Fitz Warin can readily be identified as a younger son of
Fulk Fitz Warin, 2nd Lord Fitz Warin, of Whittington, Shropshire, by
Eleanor, daughter of John de Beauchamp, of Hatch Beauchamp, Somerset.
William's identity is indicated by the fact that he was styled
"William Fitz Warin the brother" and William Fitz Warin "of
Whittington, Shropshire" in contemporary documents to distinguish him
from his kinsman, William Fitz Warin, of Penleigh (in Westbury),
Wiltshire [Reference: Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 512-513; Abstracts
of Feet of Fines Relating to Wiltshire for the Reign of Edward III.
(Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 29) (1974): 112, 120].
An interesting account of Sir William Fitz Warin's life can be found
in Beltz, Memorials of the Most Noble Order of the Garter (1841):
96–98. Beltz states that in 1339 he attended the King into Flanders
and in the same year was in the war against Scotland. He was again in
Flanders in 1340, and in 1342, In France, with the rank of banneret,
having in his retinue one knight, eight esquires, and ten mounted
archers. Froissart numbers him among the commanders in the expedition
to France in 1346. He was Knight of the Body to Queen Philippe in
1349.
A biography of Sir William Fitz Warin's son, Sir Ives Fitz Warin, can
be found in E.F. Jacob, Reg. of Henry Chichele Archbishop of
Canterbury 1414–1443 (Canterbury & York Soc. 54) (1937): 653.
In answer to your specific question regarding Ives Fitz Warin's wife,
she was Maud Argentine, widow of Richard de Merton, Knt., and daughter
and heiress of John Argentine, Knt., of Great Wymondley,
Hertfordshire, by Margaret, daughter and heiress of Robert Darcy, of
Stallingborough, Lincolnshire. Ives and Maud had two daughters,
namely Eleanor (wife of John Chideock) and Alice (wife of Richard
Whittington).
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century
colonial American immigrants who descend from Sir William Fitz Warin
and his son, Sir Ives Fitz Warin. Details on specific descents will
be included in my forthcoming book, Magna Carta Ancestry, scheduled
for publication in mid-2005.
1. Charles Calvert
2. John Nelson
3. William & Elizabeth Pole
4. Mary Johanna Somerset
5. Thomas Wingfield
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote in message news:<000801c4c9c2$5139d700$c3b4fea9@email>...
Thank you for your good post.
Sir William Fitz Warin can readily be identified as a younger son of
Fulk Fitz Warin, 2nd Lord Fitz Warin, of Whittington, Shropshire, by
Eleanor, daughter of John de Beauchamp, of Hatch Beauchamp, Somerset.
William's identity is indicated by the fact that he was styled
"William Fitz Warin the brother" and William Fitz Warin "of
Whittington, Shropshire" in contemporary documents to distinguish him
from his kinsman, William Fitz Warin, of Penleigh (in Westbury),
Wiltshire [Reference: Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 512-513; Abstracts
of Feet of Fines Relating to Wiltshire for the Reign of Edward III.
(Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 29) (1974): 112, 120].
An interesting account of Sir William Fitz Warin's life can be found
in Beltz, Memorials of the Most Noble Order of the Garter (1841):
96–98. Beltz states that in 1339 he attended the King into Flanders
and in the same year was in the war against Scotland. He was again in
Flanders in 1340, and in 1342, In France, with the rank of banneret,
having in his retinue one knight, eight esquires, and ten mounted
archers. Froissart numbers him among the commanders in the expedition
to France in 1346. He was Knight of the Body to Queen Philippe in
1349.
A biography of Sir William Fitz Warin's son, Sir Ives Fitz Warin, can
be found in E.F. Jacob, Reg. of Henry Chichele Archbishop of
Canterbury 1414–1443 (Canterbury & York Soc. 54) (1937): 653.
In answer to your specific question regarding Ives Fitz Warin's wife,
she was Maud Argentine, widow of Richard de Merton, Knt., and daughter
and heiress of John Argentine, Knt., of Great Wymondley,
Hertfordshire, by Margaret, daughter and heiress of Robert Darcy, of
Stallingborough, Lincolnshire. Ives and Maud had two daughters,
namely Eleanor (wife of John Chideock) and Alice (wife of Richard
Whittington).
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century
colonial American immigrants who descend from Sir William Fitz Warin
and his son, Sir Ives Fitz Warin. Details on specific descents will
be included in my forthcoming book, Magna Carta Ancestry, scheduled
for publication in mid-2005.
1. Charles Calvert
2. John Nelson
3. William & Elizabeth Pole
4. Mary Johanna Somerset
5. Thomas Wingfield
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote in message news:<000801c4c9c2$5139d700$c3b4fea9@email>...
In Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, page 214 (I know) we find
William FitzWarine, called Le Frere, was elevated to the peerage as a Baron, by writ of summons, dated 25 February 1342. He married Amicia Haddon, died in 1361 and was succeeded by his son
Ivo or John Fitz-Warine, 2nd Baron but was never summoned to parliament. He died in 1414, he married (no name mentioned) and had an only daughter and heiress, Eleanor.
This family is only touched upon by the Complete Peerage, Volume V, pages 512,513
It starts with Sir William FitzWarin, le frere, who was summoned to council, 25 February 1341/1342, he died of pestilence 28 October or 3 November 1361 and was buried at Wantage.
The Council which summoned him, is described as "incorrectly described as a Parliament by Dugdale and others." In other words, he was not a Baron, and therefor his son is not mentioned at all. I could find no mention in Volume XIV.
In the Complete Peerage Volume I page 197 (thanks Robert O'Connor) we find Maud de Argentine who married Sir Ives FitzWarin. Apparently she was married before but only had issue by her second husband Sir Ives/Ivo FitzWarin. Is this Maud the wife not mentioned by the Extinct Peerage? In which case she is the mother of Eleanor, mentioned above.
Can anyone confirm this?
By the way, this Eleanor has descendants with links to the USA
Charles Calvert, 3rd Lord Baltimore
Maria Joanna Somerset
John Nelson
John Alston
Hon. Robert Monckton
Lord Charles Greville Montagu
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
John Steele Gordon
as well, she is an ancestor of Prince William of Wales.
Hope someone can help.
With many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
-
Chris Phillips
Re: FitzWarine puzzle
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Or, strictly, coheir of John and Margaret, as there were two other daughters
and coheirs. (However, these coheirs succeeded to only a small fraction of
the Argentein estates, as John managed to settle most of them on his
illegitimate son William.)
Chris Phillips
In answer to your specific question regarding Ives Fitz Warin's wife,
she was Maud Argentine, widow of Richard de Merton, Knt., and daughter
and heiress of John Argentine, Knt., of Great Wymondley,
Hertfordshire, by Margaret, daughter and heiress of Robert Darcy, of
Stallingborough, Lincolnshire.
Or, strictly, coheir of John and Margaret, as there were two other daughters
and coheirs. (However, these coheirs succeeded to only a small fraction of
the Argentein estates, as John managed to settle most of them on his
illegitimate son William.)
Chris Phillips
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: FitzWarine puzzle
Dear Chris ~
Yes, strickly speaking Maud, wife of Sir Ives Fitz Warin, was daughter
and co-heiress of Sir John Argentine.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
"Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:<cn8da2$4uj$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Yes, strickly speaking Maud, wife of Sir Ives Fitz Warin, was daughter
and co-heiress of Sir John Argentine.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
"Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:<cn8da2$4uj$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Douglas Richardson wrote:
In answer to your specific question regarding Ives Fitz Warin's wife,
she was Maud Argentine, widow of Richard de Merton, Knt., and daughter
and heiress of John Argentine, Knt., of Great Wymondley,
Hertfordshire, by Margaret, daughter and heiress of Robert Darcy, of
Stallingborough, Lincolnshire.
Or, strictly, coheir of John and Margaret, as there were two other daughters
and coheirs. (However, these coheirs succeeded to only a small fraction of
the Argentein estates, as John managed to settle most of them on his
illegitimate son William.)
Chris Phillips
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: FitzWarine puzzle
Dear Leo ~
Sad to say, I'm afraid your friend lead you wrong. The online site is
incorrect about Sir Ives Fitz Warin's daughter, Alice, being
ficticious. In 1402 Sir Ives made arrangements whereby certain of his
estates in Somerset and Wiltshire should pass to his daughter, Alice,
and her husband, Richard Whittington, the wealthy London merchant.
Alice was ill in 1409 and died soon afterwards. In 1412 Sir Ives Fitz
Warin made his will in which he named his two sons-in-law, Richard
Whittington and John Chideock (husband of his daughter, Eleanor). He
appointed Richard Whittington one of his executors. At the time of
his death in 1414, Sir Ives Fitz Warin was survived only by his
daughter, Eleanor, who was sole heiress to all his estates [Reference:
J.S. Roskell, House of Commons, 3 (1992): 84-87].
Richard Whittington died in 1423, and was buried beside his wife,
Alice, in a tomb which he had built in the church of St. Michael
Paternoster. They had no children [Reference: J.S. Roskell, House of
Commons, 4 (1992): 846-849].
In addition to Roskell cited above, I might recommend that you consult
C.M. Barron's good account of Richard Whittington in the book, Studies
in London History, edited by Hollaender and Kellaway, pp. 197-248.
Medieval genealogy is not like painting by numbers. It is best done
by consulting reliable reference works like Roskell, and, where
possible, checking the original records themselves.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote in message news:<001c01c4ca90$fa984100$c3b4fea9@email>...
Sad to say, I'm afraid your friend lead you wrong. The online site is
incorrect about Sir Ives Fitz Warin's daughter, Alice, being
ficticious. In 1402 Sir Ives made arrangements whereby certain of his
estates in Somerset and Wiltshire should pass to his daughter, Alice,
and her husband, Richard Whittington, the wealthy London merchant.
Alice was ill in 1409 and died soon afterwards. In 1412 Sir Ives Fitz
Warin made his will in which he named his two sons-in-law, Richard
Whittington and John Chideock (husband of his daughter, Eleanor). He
appointed Richard Whittington one of his executors. At the time of
his death in 1414, Sir Ives Fitz Warin was survived only by his
daughter, Eleanor, who was sole heiress to all his estates [Reference:
J.S. Roskell, House of Commons, 3 (1992): 84-87].
Richard Whittington died in 1423, and was buried beside his wife,
Alice, in a tomb which he had built in the church of St. Michael
Paternoster. They had no children [Reference: J.S. Roskell, House of
Commons, 4 (1992): 846-849].
In addition to Roskell cited above, I might recommend that you consult
C.M. Barron's good account of Richard Whittington in the book, Studies
in London History, edited by Hollaender and Kellaway, pp. 197-248.
Medieval genealogy is not like painting by numbers. It is best done
by consulting reliable reference works like Roskell, and, where
possible, checking the original records themselves.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote in message news:<001c01c4ca90$fa984100$c3b4fea9@email>...
I was given these great entries, which answered my questions. What I found
fascinating was the mention of a "legendary" daughter of Ivo who married
Dick Whittington. It appears she is only "legend" and should be ignored in
genealogy.
See URL:
http://www.britannia.com/bios/gents/wfitzwarin.html
and
http://www.britannia.com/bios/gents/ifitzwarin.html
It cites George Frederick Beltz's _Memorials of the Most Noble Order of
the
Garter_ (1861). Perhaps review of Beltz work and its sources might
provide
additional substantiation of the stated relationships.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra