Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

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Arpad

Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Arpad » 10 nov 2004 16:04:49

Alwyn Thomas <alwyn@pia.bt.co.uk> wrote:
Lennart Regebro wrote:

The hero of the gothic epos Beowulf is usually said to have been
from
southern Sweden.

"Gothic epos"? I had always thought Beowulf was an English poem.

Nope. It survives through english writings, but it is thought to
originate from the Goths.

Bot the Goths came from Goetar province of Sweden, just like the
Russians originated in Roslagen province of the same country, and the
Englishmen came from Sleswig-Holstein. Hey, once upon a time we all
were neighbours!

Arpad

Inger E. Johansson

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Inger E. Johansson » 10 nov 2004 16:32:19

"Arpad" <arpadia@centrum.cz> skrev i meddelandet
news:b062caa9.0411100704.6d535db9@posting.google.com...
Alwyn Thomas <alwyn@pia.bt.co.uk> wrote:
Lennart Regebro wrote:

The hero of the gothic epos Beowulf is usually said to have been
from
southern Sweden.

"Gothic epos"? I had always thought Beowulf was an English poem.

Nope. It survives through english writings, but it is thought to
originate from the Goths.

Bot the Goths came from Goetar province of Sweden, just like the
Russians originated in Roslagen province of the same country, and the
Englishmen came from Sleswig-Holstein. Hey, once upon a time we all
were neighbours!

That explains a lot. Doesn't it?

Inger E
Arpad

Larry Swain

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Larry Swain » 10 nov 2004 17:49:07

Arpad wrote:
Alwyn Thomas <alwyn@pia.bt.co.uk> wrote:
Lennart Regebro wrote:

The hero of the gothic epos Beowulf is usually said to have been
from
southern Sweden.

"Gothic epos"? I had always thought Beowulf was an English poem.

Nope. It survives through english writings, but it is thought to
originate from the Goths.

Who in the world thinks that?

Alan Crozier

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Alan Crozier » 10 nov 2004 18:09:37

"Larry Swain" <theswain@operamail.com> wrote in message
news:41924683.6D5CF783@operamail.com...

Arpad wrote:

Alwyn Thomas <alwyn@pia.bt.co.uk> wrote:
Lennart Regebro wrote:

The hero of the gothic epos Beowulf is usually said to have been
from
southern Sweden.

"Gothic epos"? I had always thought Beowulf was an English poem.

Nope. It survives through english writings, but it is thought to
originate from the Goths.

Who in the world thinks that?

You'll always find some loony who thinks that. Curiously, the post with that
claim to which Arpad replied was written on 17 August 1997. This is really
ancient history.

Alan

--
Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden

Larry Swain

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Larry Swain » 10 nov 2004 18:26:10

Alan Crozier wrote:
"Larry Swain" <theswain@operamail.com> wrote in message
news:41924683.6D5CF783@operamail.com...


Arpad wrote:

Alwyn Thomas <alwyn@pia.bt.co.uk> wrote:
Lennart Regebro wrote:

The hero of the gothic epos Beowulf is usually said to have been
from
southern Sweden.

"Gothic epos"? I had always thought Beowulf was an English poem.

Nope. It survives through english writings, but it is thought to
originate from the Goths.

Who in the world thinks that?

You'll always find some loony who thinks that. Curiously, the post with that
claim to which Arpad replied was written on 17 August 1997. This is really
ancient history.

Alan

Hadn't noticed that...thanks. I took it seriously there for a

moment.

Prai Jei

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Prai Jei » 10 nov 2004 20:24:44

Larry Swain (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
<41924683.6D5CF783@operamail.com>:


Arpad wrote:

Alwyn Thomas <alwyn@pia.bt.co.uk> wrote:
Lennart Regebro wrote:

The hero of the gothic epos Beowulf is usually said to have been
from
southern Sweden.

"Gothic epos"? I had always thought Beowulf was an English poem.

Nope. It survives through english writings, but it is thought to
originate from the Goths.

Who in the world thinks that?

All the epos systems that my company deals with, operate in modern English,
not Gothic or even Swedish.
--
Paul Townsend
Pair them off into threes

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

Andrey Frizyuk

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Andrey Frizyuk » 10 nov 2004 21:26:44

arpadia@centrum.cz (Arpad) wrote in message news:<b062caa9.0411100704.6d535db9@posting.google.com>...
Bot the Goths came from Goetar province of Sweden, just like the
Russians originated in Roslagen province of the same country, and the
Englishmen came from Sleswig-Holstein. Hey, once upon a time we all
were neighbours!

Arpad

So the Russians "originated" in Sweden? Interesting...

And what about other Slavic people, Czechs and Poles, did they also
"originate" in Scandinavia? :)

Best wishes,
Andrei

Alan Crozier

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Alan Crozier » 10 nov 2004 21:38:53

"Andrey Frizyuk" <frizyuk@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5534a4c5.0411101226.3655c69f@posting.google.com...
arpadia@centrum.cz (Arpad) wrote in message
news:<b062caa9.0411100704.6d535db9@posting.google.com>...

Bot the Goths came from Goetar province of Sweden, just like the
Russians originated in Roslagen province of the same country, and the
Englishmen came from Sleswig-Holstein. Hey, once upon a time we all
were neighbours!

Arpad

So the Russians "originated" in Sweden? Interesting...

And what about other Slavic people, Czechs and Poles, did they also
"originate" in Scandinavia? :)

Why not? Practically everything else originated here.

;-)

Alan

--
Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden

Inger E Johansson

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Inger E Johansson » 10 nov 2004 21:59:20

"Andrey Frizyuk" <frizyuk@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:5534a4c5.0411101226.3655c69f@posting.google.com...
arpadia@centrum.cz (Arpad) wrote in message
news:<b062caa9.0411100704.6d535db9@posting.google.com>...

Bot the Goths came from Goetar province of Sweden, just like the
Russians originated in Roslagen province of the same country, and the
Englishmen came from Sleswig-Holstein. Hey, once upon a time we all
were neighbours!

Arpad

So the Russians "originated" in Sweden? Interesting...

Even more interesting than that the Rus actually came from todays Sweden,
not Uppland btw because we do have one real detailed information of the
island where the Rus lived distances as well as where there were
settlements,
is that it all started in 861 AD and that it's confirmed by one who visited
the area sometime between 865 and 871 AD.... Rimbert who wrote his Vita
Ansgari in 870's.
While the English translation of the work isn't especially good translated I
advice those of you who can read Latin to try to get hold of the text in
Latin. For you who can't read Latin this url will have to do:
Rimberts Vita Ansgari http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/anskar.html
which in Chapter XXX confirms information given in
the Nestor's Chronicle.

Some of you don't know who Ansgar or Anskar which is the English spelling of
his name was.
http://pedia.nodeworks.com/A/AN/ANS/Ansgar/

Ansgar's 'See' or should we say the See which holds Ansgar as it's special
patron is Linköping's See. Reason for this might be that the See is linked
to all three of the Royal Dynasties of Sweden in 12th century and that one
of them the Folkunga Dynasty or Bjälboätten as the correct name should be
written in 13th century have a son of the Bishop of Linköping being called
the last Varjag who was thrown out of Russia. In 12th century the See
included part of the Baltic area.

Inger E

And what about other Slavic people, Czechs and Poles, did they also
"originate" in Scandinavia? :)

Best wishes,
Andrei

Inger E Johansson

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Inger E Johansson » 10 nov 2004 22:03:32

"Prai Jei" <pvstownsend@zyx-abc.fsnet.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:cmtprt$rb7$3@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
Larry Swain (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
41924683.6D5CF783@operamail.com>:



Arpad wrote:

Alwyn Thomas <alwyn@pia.bt.co.uk> wrote:
Lennart Regebro wrote:

The hero of the gothic epos Beowulf is usually said to have been
from
southern Sweden.

"Gothic epos"? I had always thought Beowulf was an English poem.

Nope. It survives through english writings, but it is thought to
originate from the Goths.

Who in the world thinks that?

All the epos systems that my company deals with, operate in modern
English,
not Gothic or even Swedish.

I can't agree with you on the former, but definitely agree with you on the
later. The Beowulf seems to be linked to a form of combined Old-Saxon and
Britanic but also influenced of the Old Scandinavian's southern dialects.

Inger E
--
Paul Townsend
Pair them off into threes

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

Leo van de Pas

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 10 nov 2004 22:21:02

Dear Alan,

You are naughty :-) I understand that Rurik came from Denmark or Sweden
moved to Nowgorod and became its ruler. The Rurik family is of Scandinavian
origins but not the Russian people, that is how I understand the matter to
be.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Crozier" <alan.crazier@telia.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/


"Andrey Frizyuk" <frizyuk@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5534a4c5.0411101226.3655c69f@posting.google.com...
arpadia@centrum.cz (Arpad) wrote in message
news:<b062caa9.0411100704.6d535db9@posting.google.com>...

Bot the Goths came from Goetar province of Sweden, just like the
Russians originated in Roslagen province of the same country, and the
Englishmen came from Sleswig-Holstein. Hey, once upon a time we all
were neighbours!

Arpad

So the Russians "originated" in Sweden? Interesting...

And what about other Slavic people, Czechs and Poles, did they also
"originate" in Scandinavia? :)

Why not? Practically everything else originated here.

;-)

Alan

--
Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden



Alan Crozier

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Alan Crozier » 10 nov 2004 22:31:44

"Inger E Johansson" <ingerx_xe.johanssonx@telia.com> wrote in message
news:Emvkd.8399$d5.71514@newsb.telia.net...
"Prai Jei" <pvstownsend@zyx-abc.fsnet.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:cmtprt$rb7$3@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
Larry Swain (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
41924683.6D5CF783@operamail.com>:



Arpad wrote:

Alwyn Thomas <alwyn@pia.bt.co.uk> wrote:
Lennart Regebro wrote:

The hero of the gothic epos Beowulf is usually said to have been
from
southern Sweden.

"Gothic epos"? I had always thought Beowulf was an English poem.

Nope. It survives through english writings, but it is thought to
originate from the Goths.

Who in the world thinks that?

All the epos systems that my company deals with, operate in modern
English,
not Gothic or even Swedish.

I can't agree with you on the former, but definitely agree with you on the
later. The Beowulf seems to be linked to a form of combined Old-Saxon and
Britanic but also influenced of the Old Scandinavian's southern dialects.

Just wondering what you mean by "Britanic" here. What is Celtic about
Beowulf? The language? The content?

Alan

--
Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden

erilar

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av erilar » 10 nov 2004 22:40:15

She changed her address again, I see, since she slipped my filter 8-(

--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)

You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument
is that reason doesn't count. Isaac Asimov

Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo

Gjest

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 nov 2004 22:51:01

Wednesday, 10 November, 2004


Dear Leo, Alan, et al.,

As I recall, the band led by Rurik into what we call Russia were
Scandinavians (prob. mainly/all Swedes) whom 'The Primary Russian Chronicle' called
Rus, or Ros. This is of course a familiar 'they were invited in, stayed and
took over' story (gentle readers will recall tales from Vortigern and Hengist &
Horsa on down; not to mention a few older ones), but those who attempted to
de-bunk this were mostly Soviet era (error ?) Slavicists to whom the
introduction of nasty Germanic blood into Mother Russia was heretical or worse.

Cheers,

John

John W. Kennedy

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av John W. Kennedy » 11 nov 2004 00:26:14

Andrey Frizyuk wrote:
arpadia@centrum.cz (Arpad) wrote in message news:<b062caa9.0411100704.6d535db9@posting.google.com>...

Bot the Goths came from Goetar province of Sweden, just like the
Russians originated in Roslagen province of the same country, and the
Englishmen came from Sleswig-Holstein. Hey, once upon a time we all
were neighbours!

Arpad


So the Russians "originated" in Sweden? Interesting...

And what about other Slavic people, Czechs and Poles, did they also
"originate" in Scandinavia? :)

The ethnic Rus', for whom Russia is named, have traditionally been
believed to have been Varangians from Scandinavia, not Slavs. The oldest
records explicitly say as much. Some recent Russian writers have
expressed doubt of this, but most non-Slavic historians find their
arguments unimpressive.

--
John W. Kennedy
"You can, if you wish, class all science-fiction together; but it is
about as perceptive as classing the works of Ballantyne, Conrad and W.
W. Jacobs together as the 'sea-story' and then criticizing _that_."
-- C. S. Lewis. "An Experiment in Criticism"

John W. Kennedy

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av John W. Kennedy » 11 nov 2004 00:26:47

Larry Swain wrote:
Arpad wrote:
Alwyn Thomas <alwyn@pia.bt.co.uk> wrote:
Lennart Regebro wrote:
The hero of the gothic epos Beowulf is usually said to have been
from southern Sweden.

"Gothic epos"? I had always thought Beowulf was an English poem.

Nope. It survives through english writings, but it is thought to
originate from the Goths.

Who in the world thinks that?

Although the Goths first appear in present-day Poland, they claimed that
their homeland was in Scandinavia, and the archaeological evidence is
consistent with that. And "Geat" and "Goth" could well be cognate.

So, yes, it is possible that Beowulf was one of the kings of the
ancestors of the Goth, so it is possible that the underlying story is
Gothic.

--
John W. Kennedy
"Information is light. Information, in itself, about anything, is light."
-- Tom Stoppard. "Night and Day"

John A Rea

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av John A Rea » 11 nov 2004 02:37:46

Inger E Johansson wrote:
"Andrey Frizyuk" <frizyuk@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:5534a4c5.0411101226.3655c69f@posting.google.com...

arpadia@centrum.cz (Arpad) wrote in message

news:<b062caa9.0411100704.6d535db9@posting.google.com>...

Bot the Goths came from Goetar province of Sweden, just like the
Russians originated in Roslagen province of the same country, and the
Englishmen came from Sleswig-Holstein. Hey, once upon a time we all
were neighbours!

Arpad

So the Russians "originated" in Sweden? Interesting...


Even more interesting than that the Rus actually came from todays Sweden,
not Uppland btw because we do have one real detailed information of the
island where the Rus lived distances as well as where there were
settlements,
is that it all started in 861 AD and that it's confirmed by one who visited
the area sometime between 865 and 871 AD.... Rimbert who wrote his Vita
Ansgari in 870's.
While the English translation of the work isn't especially good translated I
advice those of you who can read Latin to try to get hold of the text in
Latin. For you who can't read Latin this url will have to do:
Rimberts Vita Ansgari http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/anskar.html
which in Chapter XXX confirms information given in
the Nestor's Chronicle.

Some of you don't know who Ansgar or Anskar which is the English spelling of
his name was.
http://pedia.nodeworks.com/A/AN/ANS/Ansgar/

Ansgar's 'See' or should we say the See which holds Ansgar as it's special
patron is Linköping's See. Reason for this might be that the See is linked
to all three of the Royal Dynasties of Sweden in 12th century and that one
of them the Folkunga Dynasty or Bjälboätten as the correct name should be
written in 13th century have a son of the Bishop of Linköping being called
the last Varjag who was thrown out of Russia. In 12th century the See
included part of the Baltic area.

Inger E

Wit syntax like this on the internet, who needs Faulkner!

And what about other Slavic people, Czechs and Poles, did they also
"originate" in Scandinavia? :)

Best wishes,
Andrei



Terry

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Terry » 11 nov 2004 04:01:01

As I understand it Sweden was much larger then it is now, and was known as
Greater Sweden, not that the Russians moved from Sweden into what is now
Russia, if this is wrong please let me know
Thanks
Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrey Frizyuk" <frizyuk@yahoo.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/


arpadia@centrum.cz (Arpad) wrote in message
news:<b062caa9.0411100704.6d535db9@posting.google.com>...

Bot the Goths came from Goetar province of Sweden, just like the
Russians originated in Roslagen province of the same country, and the
Englishmen came from Sleswig-Holstein. Hey, once upon a time we all
were neighbours!

Arpad

So the Russians "originated" in Sweden? Interesting...

And what about other Slavic people, Czechs and Poles, did they also
"originate" in Scandinavia? :)

Best wishes,
Andrei



Peter T. Daniels

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Peter T. Daniels » 11 nov 2004 04:25:27

John A Rea wrote:

Ansgar's 'See' or should we say the See which holds Ansgar as it's special
patron is Linköping's See. Reason for this might be that the See is linked
to all three of the Royal Dynasties of Sweden in 12th century and that one
of them the Folkunga Dynasty or Bjälboätten as the correct name should be
written in 13th century have a son of the Bishop of Linköping being called
the last Varjag who was thrown out of Russia. In 12th century the See
included part of the Baltic area.

Inger E

Wit syntax like this on the internet, who needs Faulkner!

It's a British fad to use no commas whatsoever in legal documents. Inger
is quoting here.
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net

Inger E Johansson

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Inger E Johansson » 11 nov 2004 04:27:46

John A Rea,
please tell why my syntax, I am dyslextic, has to do with correct
information re. the Rus and Varjags presented by first hand witness Rimbert
in Vita Ansgari in 870's?

Inger E

"John A Rea" <j.rea2@insightbb.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:Gnzkd.73845$HA.33721@attbi_s01...
Inger E Johansson wrote:
"Andrey Frizyuk" <frizyuk@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:5534a4c5.0411101226.3655c69f@posting.google.com...

arpadia@centrum.cz (Arpad) wrote in message

news:<b062caa9.0411100704.6d535db9@posting.google.com>...

Bot the Goths came from Goetar province of Sweden, just like the
Russians originated in Roslagen province of the same country, and the
Englishmen came from Sleswig-Holstein. Hey, once upon a time we all
were neighbours!

Arpad

So the Russians "originated" in Sweden? Interesting...


Even more interesting than that the Rus actually came from todays
Sweden,
not Uppland btw because we do have one real detailed information of the
island where the Rus lived distances as well as where there were
settlements,
is that it all started in 861 AD and that it's confirmed by one who
visited
the area sometime between 865 and 871 AD.... Rimbert who wrote his Vita
Ansgari in 870's.
While the English translation of the work isn't especially good
translated I
advice those of you who can read Latin to try to get hold of the text in
Latin. For you who can't read Latin this url will have to do:
Rimberts Vita Ansgari http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/anskar.html
which in Chapter XXX confirms information given in
the Nestor's Chronicle.

Some of you don't know who Ansgar or Anskar which is the English
spelling of
his name was.
http://pedia.nodeworks.com/A/AN/ANS/Ansgar/

Ansgar's 'See' or should we say the See which holds Ansgar as it's
special
patron is Linköping's See. Reason for this might be that the See is
linked
to all three of the Royal Dynasties of Sweden in 12th century and that
one
of them the Folkunga Dynasty or Bjälboätten as the correct name should
be
written in 13th century have a son of the Bishop of Linköping being
called
the last Varjag who was thrown out of Russia. In 12th century the See
included part of the Baltic area.

Inger E

Wit syntax like this on the internet, who needs Faulkner!

And what about other Slavic people, Czechs and Poles, did they also
"originate" in Scandinavia? :)

Best wishes,
Andrei



Leo van de Pas

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 11 nov 2004 05:16:03

Dear Inger,
Dyslexic or not, you do a wonderful job, I wonder whether John A Rea would
do as good in Swedish or Dutch.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Inger E Johansson" <ingerx_xe.johanssonx@telia.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/


John A Rea,
please tell why my syntax, I am dyslextic, has to do with correct
information re. the Rus and Varjags presented by first hand witness
Rimbert
in Vita Ansgari in 870's?

Inger E

"John A Rea" <j.rea2@insightbb.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:Gnzkd.73845$HA.33721@attbi_s01...
Inger E Johansson wrote:
"Andrey Frizyuk" <frizyuk@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:5534a4c5.0411101226.3655c69f@posting.google.com...

arpadia@centrum.cz (Arpad) wrote in message

news:<b062caa9.0411100704.6d535db9@posting.google.com>...

Bot the Goths came from Goetar province of Sweden, just like the
Russians originated in Roslagen province of the same country, and the
Englishmen came from Sleswig-Holstein. Hey, once upon a time we all
were neighbours!

Arpad

So the Russians "originated" in Sweden? Interesting...


Even more interesting than that the Rus actually came from todays
Sweden,
not Uppland btw because we do have one real detailed information of
the
island where the Rus lived distances as well as where there were
settlements,
is that it all started in 861 AD and that it's confirmed by one who
visited
the area sometime between 865 and 871 AD.... Rimbert who wrote his
Vita
Ansgari in 870's.
While the English translation of the work isn't especially good
translated I
advice those of you who can read Latin to try to get hold of the text
in
Latin. For you who can't read Latin this url will have to do:
Rimberts Vita Ansgari http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/anskar.html
which in Chapter XXX confirms information given in
the Nestor's Chronicle.

Some of you don't know who Ansgar or Anskar which is the English
spelling of
his name was.
http://pedia.nodeworks.com/A/AN/ANS/Ansgar/

Ansgar's 'See' or should we say the See which holds Ansgar as it's
special
patron is Linköping's See. Reason for this might be that the See is
linked
to all three of the Royal Dynasties of Sweden in 12th century and that
one
of them the Folkunga Dynasty or Bjälboätten as the correct name should
be
written in 13th century have a son of the Bishop of Linköping being
called
the last Varjag who was thrown out of Russia. In 12th century the See
included part of the Baltic area.

Inger E

Wit syntax like this on the internet, who needs Faulkner!

And what about other Slavic people, Czechs and Poles, did they also
"originate" in Scandinavia? :)

Best wishes,
Andrei







Larry Swain

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Larry Swain » 11 nov 2004 06:45:18

"John W. Kennedy" wrote:
Larry Swain wrote:
Arpad wrote:
Alwyn Thomas <alwyn@pia.bt.co.uk> wrote:
Lennart Regebro wrote:
The hero of the gothic epos Beowulf is usually said to have been
from southern Sweden.

"Gothic epos"? I had always thought Beowulf was an English poem.

Nope. It survives through english writings, but it is thought to
originate from the Goths.

Who in the world thinks that?

Although the Goths first appear in present-day Poland, they claimed that
their homeland was in Scandinavia, and the archaeological evidence is
consistent with that. And "Geat" and "Goth" could well be cognate.


So, yes, it is possible that Beowulf was one of the kings of the
ancestors of the Goth, so it is possible that the underlying story is
Gothic.


Yes, and it is possible it was Greek since they're all
Indo-Europeans and were once kin.....trace anything back far
enough and of course you can all sort of unsubstantiated claims.

Lewis Mammel

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Lewis Mammel » 11 nov 2004 06:59:12

Larry Swain wrote:

Yes, and it is possible it was Greek since they're all
Indo-Europeans and were once kin.....trace anything back far
enough and of course you can all sort of unsubstantiated claims.

Yah. Grendel was a sea acorn worm.

Lewis Mammel

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Lewis Mammel » 11 nov 2004 07:36:45

"John W. Kennedy" wrote:

The ethnic Rus', for whom Russia is named, have traditionally been
believed to have been Varangians from Scandinavia, not Slavs. The oldest
records explicitly say as much. Some recent Russian writers have
expressed doubt of this, but most non-Slavic historians find their
arguments unimpressive.

That's a fairly complicated thought. So, you know, like, who knows?

The Permian as a geologic period that extends from about
280 to 251 million years before the present (mya). As with
most older geologic periods, the strata that define the start
and end are well identified, but the exact date of the start
of the period is uncertain by a few million years. The end of
the period is marked by a major extinction event that is more
tightly dated. The Permian is named from the extensive
exposures in the region around the city of Perm in Russia.

Lew Mammel, Jr.

Arpad

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Arpad » 11 nov 2004 09:25:04

frizyuk@yahoo.com (Andrey Frizyuk) wrote...
arpadia@centrum.cz (Arpad) wrote...

Bot the Goths came from Goetar province of Sweden, just like the
Russians originated in Roslagen province of the same country, and the
Englishmen came from Sleswig-Holstein. Hey, once upon a time we all
were neighbours!

Arpad

So the Russians "originated" in Sweden? Interesting...

And what about other Slavic people, Czechs and Poles, did they also
"originate" in Scandinavia? :)

Best wishes,
Andrei

There is an ancient legend that there were three brothers - Lech,
Czech and Rus - whose progeny were Poles, Czechs and Russians,
respectively. Rus is not a Slavic name, as you know. The origins of
Czech and Lech are Slavic. Lech is short for /ledenin/, i.e. a man
plowing virgin lands. Czech is short for /chetnik/, from /cheta/, i.e.
a military detachment.

Arpad

Paul J Kriha

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Paul J Kriha » 11 nov 2004 10:19:01

Arpad <arpadia@centrum.cz> wrote in message news:b062caa9.0411110025.799cb5b7@posting.google.com...
frizyuk@yahoo.com (Andrey Frizyuk) wrote...
arpadia@centrum.cz (Arpad) wrote...

Bot the Goths came from Goetar province of Sweden, just like the
Russians originated in Roslagen province of the same country, and the
Englishmen came from Sleswig-Holstein. Hey, once upon a time we all
were neighbours!

Arpad

So the Russians "originated" in Sweden? Interesting...

And what about other Slavic people, Czechs and Poles, did they also
"originate" in Scandinavia? :)

Best wishes,
Andrei

There is an ancient legend that there were three brothers - Lech,
Czech and Rus - whose progeny were Poles, Czechs and Russians,
respectively. Rus is not a Slavic name, as you know. The origins of
Czech and Lech are Slavic. Lech is short for /ledenin/, i.e. a man
plowing virgin lands. Czech is short for /chetnik/, from /cheta/, i.e.
a military detachment.

Arpad

Oh, don't be silly. It's all junk.
I bet you cut and pasted it from Radio Prague's childish
crappola web page. You are too gullible.

Paul JK

Inger E Johansson

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Inger E Johansson » 11 nov 2004 12:44:51

Arpad,
I suggest you to read the Khazarian papers from 1020's and compare them with
the Nestor's Chronicle - the names in your version aren't the same as in the
others.

Inger E
"Arpad" <arpadia@centrum.cz> skrev i meddelandet
news:b062caa9.0411110025.799cb5b7@posting.google.com...
frizyuk@yahoo.com (Andrey Frizyuk) wrote...
arpadia@centrum.cz (Arpad) wrote...

Bot the Goths came from Goetar province of Sweden, just like the
Russians originated in Roslagen province of the same country, and the
Englishmen came from Sleswig-Holstein. Hey, once upon a time we all
were neighbours!

Arpad

So the Russians "originated" in Sweden? Interesting...

And what about other Slavic people, Czechs and Poles, did they also
"originate" in Scandinavia? :)

Best wishes,
Andrei

There is an ancient legend that there were three brothers - Lech,
Czech and Rus - whose progeny were Poles, Czechs and Russians,
respectively. Rus is not a Slavic name, as you know. The origins of
Czech and Lech are Slavic. Lech is short for /ledenin/, i.e. a man
plowing virgin lands. Czech is short for /chetnik/, from /cheta/, i.e.
a military detachment.

Arpad

John W. Kennedy

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av John W. Kennedy » 11 nov 2004 16:52:46

Larry Swain wrote:
"John W. Kennedy" wrote:
Larry Swain wrote:
Arpad wrote:
Alwyn Thomas <alwyn@pia.bt.co.uk> wrote:
Lennart Regebro wrote:
The hero of the gothic epos Beowulf is usually said to have been
from southern Sweden.

"Gothic epos"? I had always thought Beowulf was an English poem.

Nope. It survives through english writings, but it is thought to
originate from the Goths.

Who in the world thinks that?

Although the Goths first appear in present-day Poland, they claimed that
their homeland was in Scandinavia, and the archaeological evidence is
consistent with that. And "Geat" and "Goth" could well be cognate.

So, yes, it is possible that Beowulf was one of the kings of the
ancestors of the Goth, so it is possible that the underlying story is
Gothic.

Yes, and it is possible it was Greek since they're all
Indo-Europeans and were once kin.....trace anything back far
enough and of course you can all sort of unsubstantiated claims.

Nothing "unsubstantiated" about it. The origin of the Goths in southern
modern Sweden is and always has been the accepted, standard, traditional
belief.

--
John W. Kennedy
"The pathetic hope that the White House will turn a Caligula into a
Marcus Aurelius is as naïve as the fear that ultimate power inevitably
corrupts."
-- James D. Barber (1930-2004).

Larry Swain

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Larry Swain » 11 nov 2004 20:06:18

"John W. Kennedy" wrote:
Larry Swain wrote:
"John W. Kennedy" wrote:
Larry Swain wrote:
Arpad wrote:
Alwyn Thomas <alwyn@pia.bt.co.uk> wrote:
Lennart Regebro wrote:
The hero of the gothic epos Beowulf is usually said to have been
from southern Sweden.

"Gothic epos"? I had always thought Beowulf was an English poem.

Nope. It survives through english writings, but it is thought to
originate from the Goths.

Who in the world thinks that?

Although the Goths first appear in present-day Poland, they claimed that
their homeland was in Scandinavia, and the archaeological evidence is
consistent with that. And "Geat" and "Goth" could well be cognate.

So, yes, it is possible that Beowulf was one of the kings of the
ancestors of the Goth, so it is possible that the underlying story is
Gothic.

Yes, and it is possible it was Greek since they're all
Indo-Europeans and were once kin.....trace anything back far
enough and of course you can all sort of unsubstantiated claims.

Nothing "unsubstantiated" about it. The origin of the Goths in southern
modern Sweden is and always has been the accepted, standard, traditional
belief.

Really? Because Jordanes says so? Perhaps you've read something
I haven't, but since Jordanes is our only source, and Jordanes
has been known to be wrong on a thing or two, it is hardly a
critical stance to accept what any ancient author says about the
mists of time. Unfortunately there is no archaeological
evidence to support Jordanes claim; yes there are connections
between cultures in Poland and cultures in Sweden at this time,
but that doesn't mean that the former derived from teh latter,
and there are differences too. And differences in linguistic
development are also highly suggestive.

As for the cognate Geat and Goth, both descend from
proto-Germanic *Gautr-- i. e. the word or name existed before a
seperate people did.

But let's say for a moment that Jordanes is 100 per cent correct
and the Goths were in Sweded and left....you're trying to tell
us that Beowulf which relates events of the fifth and sixth
centuries was originally a tale told by Goths who left Swedent
at minimum 500 years before the events and people that Beowulf
mentions? I wonder what evidence you have for this?

J Collier

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av J Collier » 11 nov 2004 21:31:42

Larry Swain <theswain@operamail.com> wrote in message news:<4192FC6E.E9233CBD@operamail.com>...
"John W. Kennedy" wrote:

Larry Swain wrote:
Arpad wrote:
Alwyn Thomas <alwyn@pia.bt.co.uk> wrote:
Lennart Regebro wrote:
The hero of the gothic epos Beowulf is usually said to have been
from southern Sweden.

"Gothic epos"? I had always thought Beowulf was an English poem.

Nope. It survives through english writings, but it is thought to
originate from the Goths.

Who in the world thinks that?

Although the Goths first appear in present-day Poland, they claimed that
their homeland was in Scandinavia, and the archaeological evidence is
consistent with that. And "Geat" and "Goth" could well be cognate.


So, yes, it is possible that Beowulf was one of the kings of the
ancestors of the Goth, so it is possible that the underlying story is
Gothic.


Yes, and it is possible it was Greek since they're all
Indo-Europeans and were once kin.....trace anything back far
enough and of course you can all sort of unsubstantiated claims.

For what is Göteborg (English: Gothenburg) named, or I should
ask, when was it named?

Soren Larsen

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Soren Larsen » 11 nov 2004 21:46:03

"J Collier" <jimcolli@pacbell.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:53f082b3.0411111231.256d5f74@posting.google.com
Larry Swain <theswain@operamail.com> wrote in message
news:<4192FC6E.E9233CBD@operamail.com>...
"John W. Kennedy" wrote:

Larry Swain wrote:
Arpad wrote:
Alwyn Thomas <alwyn@pia.bt.co.uk> wrote:
Lennart Regebro wrote:
The hero of the gothic epos Beowulf is usually said to have
been from southern Sweden.

"Gothic epos"? I had always thought Beowulf was an English poem.

Nope. It survives through english writings, but it is thought to
originate from the Goths.

Who in the world thinks that?

Although the Goths first appear in present-day Poland, they claimed
that their homeland was in Scandinavia, and the archaeological
evidence is consistent with that. And "Geat" and "Goth" could well
be cognate.


So, yes, it is possible that Beowulf was one of the kings of the
ancestors of the Goth, so it is possible that the underlying story
is Gothic.


Yes, and it is possible it was Greek since they're all
Indo-Europeans and were once kin.....trace anything back far
enough and of course you can all sort of unsubstantiated claims.

For what is Göteborg (English: Gothenburg) named, or I should
ask, when was it named?

1) The castle (borg) at the Göta river.
2) Beginning of the 17th century.

Cheers
Soren Larsen

A Tsar Is Born

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av A Tsar Is Born » 12 nov 2004 00:00:16

frizyuk@yahoo.com (Andrey Frizyuk) wrote in message news:<5534a4c5.0411101226.3655c69f@posting.google.com>...
arpadia@centrum.cz (Arpad) wrote in message news:<b062caa9.0411100704.6d535db9@posting.google.com>...

Bot the Goths came from Goetar province of Sweden, just like the
Russians originated in Roslagen province of the same country, and the
Englishmen came from Sleswig-Holstein. Hey, once upon a time we all
were neighbours!

Arpad

So the Russians "originated" in Sweden? Interesting...

No, the Russians did NOT originate in Sweden, and no one but Arpad
(aren't you a Magyar and therefore not even Indo-European?) ever said
they did.

The NAME "Rus" originated in Sweden. Three brothers, the eldest being
Rurik, went a-viking through what is now Russia, and near Kiev the
local tribes, who were in some disorder, begged them to take over.
They did. Eventually the tribes adopted the name "Rus."

Similarly the name "Bulgar" is Ugric, from a people related to the
Hungarians and other Central Asians, but the Bulgarian people are not,
and their language is not. They are Slavs whom the Bulgar khan
conquered. They adopted his name, and completely absorbed their
conquerors.

Similarly the name "France" is German, from a Germanic tribe in the
Rhineland that moved into the Low Countries as clients in Roman times
and, with the decline of Roman authority after the invasions of
Attila, seized power over much of Gallia. The Gallo-Romans adopted the
name "Frank" and the Franks took the Latin language (and the Catholic
religion) and were completely absorbed.

Similarly when an Irish tribe, the Scots, conquered the Picts in
northern Britain ... well, you get the idea. (I hope.)

The most recent such example, at least in Europe, came in 1859, when
the principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia were united into one
country and, rather than call it Wallachia-Moldavia (or their language
Vlach, as it had been called for centuries), someone got the bright
idea of calling it all "Romania," a name once used for what historians
call the Byzantine Empire but long disused. It caught on.

And what about other Slavic people, Czechs and Poles, did they also
"originate" in Scandinavia? :)

Just as much as the Russians did, i.e. not at all.

Jean Coeur de Lapin

Inger E Johansson

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Inger E Johansson » 12 nov 2004 01:36:01

"Soren Larsen" <sohela@tiscali.dk> skrev i meddelandet
news:2vi1csF2ksjqlU1@uni-berlin.de...
"J Collier" <jimcolli@pacbell.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:53f082b3.0411111231.256d5f74@posting.google.com
Larry Swain <theswain@operamail.com> wrote in message
news:<4192FC6E.E9233CBD@operamail.com>...
"John W. Kennedy" wrote:

Larry Swain wrote:
Arpad wrote:
Alwyn Thomas <alwyn@pia.bt.co.uk> wrote:
Lennart Regebro wrote:
The hero of the gothic epos Beowulf is usually said to have
been from southern Sweden.

"Gothic epos"? I had always thought Beowulf was an English poem.

Nope. It survives through english writings, but it is thought to
originate from the Goths.

Who in the world thinks that?

Although the Goths first appear in present-day Poland, they claimed
that their homeland was in Scandinavia, and the archaeological
evidence is consistent with that. And "Geat" and "Goth" could well
be cognate.


So, yes, it is possible that Beowulf was one of the kings of the
ancestors of the Goth, so it is possible that the underlying story
is Gothic.


Yes, and it is possible it was Greek since they're all
Indo-Europeans and were once kin.....trace anything back far
enough and of course you can all sort of unsubstantiated claims.

For what is Göteborg (English: Gothenburg) named, or I should
ask, when was it named?

1) The castle (borg) at the Göta river.

Could have been but that's not so. The River had the name Vigothaelf as
early as in Ptolomy's days - which Arabian Carthographs never missed but
most European scholar one way or an other managed not to find....
The castle weren't here in or around today's Gothenburg. It was upstreams
close to what came to be known as Lödöse but north of that closer to Lilla
Edet. Oh yes there were a fortress here on Hising Island. Less than 2000
meter from where I am sitting in my room this very moment. If you on a map
look at 'Släta Damm' you will find the ruins of it marked a bit south of the
'Släta Damm'. But that was Danish back in the 'old' days....

2) Beginning of the 17th century.

Name Vigothelf goes back to 120 AD.

Inger E
Cheers
Soren Larsen


Inger E Johansson

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Inger E Johansson » 12 nov 2004 01:40:02

So you who call yourself 'A Tsar is Born' tries to continue the Sovjet Era's
false information. I suggest to you as well as to others who don't get the
correct facts behind the RUS(who were Swedes as were the Varjags) that there
are more than 50 contemporary sources from 9th century up to 1115 AD which
you ought to read. They all tell same story and that story has nothing what
so ever to do with your assumptions.

Inger E


"A Tsar Is Born" <atsarisborn@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:d4f8c75b.0411111500.54c6fd91@posting.google.com...
frizyuk@yahoo.com (Andrey Frizyuk) wrote in message
news:<5534a4c5.0411101226.3655c69f@posting.google.com>...
arpadia@centrum.cz (Arpad) wrote in message
news:<b062caa9.0411100704.6d535db9@posting.google.com>...

Bot the Goths came from Goetar province of Sweden, just like the
Russians originated in Roslagen province of the same country, and the
Englishmen came from Sleswig-Holstein. Hey, once upon a time we all
were neighbours!

Arpad

So the Russians "originated" in Sweden? Interesting...

No, the Russians did NOT originate in Sweden, and no one but Arpad
(aren't you a Magyar and therefore not even Indo-European?) ever said
they did.

The NAME "Rus" originated in Sweden. Three brothers, the eldest being
Rurik, went a-viking through what is now Russia, and near Kiev the
local tribes, who were in some disorder, begged them to take over.
They did. Eventually the tribes adopted the name "Rus."

Similarly the name "Bulgar" is Ugric, from a people related to the
Hungarians and other Central Asians, but the Bulgarian people are not,
and their language is not. They are Slavs whom the Bulgar khan
conquered. They adopted his name, and completely absorbed their
conquerors.

Similarly the name "France" is German, from a Germanic tribe in the
Rhineland that moved into the Low Countries as clients in Roman times
and, with the decline of Roman authority after the invasions of
Attila, seized power over much of Gallia. The Gallo-Romans adopted the
name "Frank" and the Franks took the Latin language (and the Catholic
religion) and were completely absorbed.

Similarly when an Irish tribe, the Scots, conquered the Picts in
northern Britain ... well, you get the idea. (I hope.)

The most recent such example, at least in Europe, came in 1859, when
the principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia were united into one
country and, rather than call it Wallachia-Moldavia (or their language
Vlach, as it had been called for centuries), someone got the bright
idea of calling it all "Romania," a name once used for what historians
call the Byzantine Empire but long disused. It caught on.

And what about other Slavic people, Czechs and Poles, did they also
"originate" in Scandinavia? :)

Just as much as the Russians did, i.e. not at all.

Jean Coeur de Lapin

Alan Crozier

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Alan Crozier » 12 nov 2004 08:24:49

"Inger E Johansson" <ingerx_xe.johanssonx@telia.com> wrote in message
news:RzTkd.121664$dP1.418106@newsc.telia.net...
"Soren Larsen" <sohela@tiscali.dk> skrev i meddelandet
news:2vi1csF2ksjqlU1@uni-berlin.de...
"J Collier" <jimcolli@pacbell.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:53f082b3.0411111231.256d5f74@posting.google.com
For what is Göteborg (English: Gothenburg) named, or I should
ask, when was it named?

1) The castle (borg) at the Göta river.

Could have been but that's not so. The River had the name Vigothaelf as
early as in Ptolomy's days - which Arabian Carthographs never missed but
most European scholar one way or an other managed not to find....
The castle weren't here in or around today's Gothenburg. It was upstreams
close to what came to be known as Lödöse but north of that closer to Lilla
Edet. Oh yes there were a fortress here on Hising Island. Less than 2000
meter from where I am sitting in my room this very moment. If you on a map
look at 'Släta Damm' you will find the ruins of it marked a bit south of
the
'Släta Damm'. But that was Danish back in the 'old' days....

I refrained from trying to answer thie OP's question, hoping that Inger, as
a native of the city, would provide a useful answer. As usual, she didn't,
instead going off at a tangent about a much earlier castle somewhere *near*
Gothenburg and found only on Arabian maps (is Inger suggesting it was called
Gothenburg back then?). The original question was:

For what is Göteborg (English: Gothenburg) named, or I should ask, when was
it named?

Inger obviously didn't read or understand the question. Søren's answer was
more helpful. The present name of the river is recorded in the 13th century
as Gautelfr. The first town with the *name* Göteborg was started by Karl IX
on Inger's island. The present-day Göteborg with its centre across the water
from Inger was founded by Gustavus Adolphus in 1619.

What came before is very interesting, but that's not what the question was
about.

Alan

--
Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden

Stelucia

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Stelucia » 12 nov 2004 12:26:13

atsarisborn@hotmail.com (A Tsar Is Born) wrote in message
The most recent such example, at least in Europe, came in 1859, when
the principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia were united into one
country and, rather than call it Wallachia-Moldavia (or their language
Vlach, as it had been called for centuries), someone got the bright
idea of calling it all "Romania," a name once used for what historians
call the Byzantine Empire but long disused. It caught on.

That is completely wrong. Romanians never called themselves Vlachs or
Wallachians, that was how others were calling them. They called
themselves "rumani" as an ethnic entity. The inhabitants of the
Danubian principlaities were calling themselves "muntean/munteni" if
they were from Muntenia (called Wallachia by foreigners),
"moldovean/moldoveni" if they were from Moldova and
"ungurean/ungureni" if they were from Transylvania. As a note,
"ungurean" doesn't mean a Hungarian, it means a Romanian from
Transylvania, also called Tara Ungureasca. The name of Wallachia was
actually Tara Romaneasca (the country of Romanians) or Muntenia. The
name of Tara Romaneasca appears in historical documents from XIVth
century. There is absolutely no record whatsoever of someone saying
"Hold on. Lets call our country Romania because nobody uses this
name." Had it been the case, the history would have retained the name
of the Godfather (of Godmother) of Romania, as the union of the
principalities took place in 1859.. As it is, nobody "renamed" the
country, the name came naturally as Romanians considered
themselves…Romanians.

Igor Sklar

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Igor Sklar » 12 nov 2004 12:28:02

Inger E Johansson wrote...
So you who call yourself 'A Tsar is Born' tries to continue the Sovjet
Era's false information. I suggest to you as well as to others who don't
get the correct facts behind the RUS(who were Swedes as were the Varjags)
that there are more than 50 contemporary sources from 9th century up to 1115
AD which you ought to read. They all tell same story and that story has
nothing what so ever to do with your assumptions.

Not one of "more than 50 contemporary sources" states that the Rus
were Swedes. The Varangians lived at the southern coast of Norway.
Rurik-Hroerekr and his band came from Jutland or, to be specific, from
Haithabu.

regards

Alan Crozier

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Alan Crozier » 12 nov 2004 12:34:23

"Stelucia" <Stelucia@altavista.net> wrote in message
news:b1eb5832.0411120326.1cb7b27e@posting.google.com...

<snip>
As a note,
"ungurean" doesn't mean a Hungarian, it means a Romanian from
Transylvania, also called Tara Ungureasca.

Interesting. So what do the Romanians call the Hungarians to distinguish
them from the Romanians of Transylvania? Is it "ungur"?

Alan

--
Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden

Inger E Johansson

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Inger E Johansson » 12 nov 2004 14:24:07

"Igor Sklar" <yaroslavl@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:870e846a.0411120328.7c3404f7@posting.google.com...
Inger E Johansson wrote...
So you who call yourself 'A Tsar is Born' tries to continue the Sovjet
Era's false information. I suggest to you as well as to others who don't
get the correct facts behind the RUS(who were Swedes as were the
Varjags)
that there are more than 50 contemporary sources from 9th century up to
1115
AD which you ought to read. They all tell same story and that story has
nothing what so ever to do with your assumptions.

Not one of "more than 50 contemporary sources" states that the Rus
were Swedes. The Varangians lived at the southern coast of Norway.
Rurik-Hroerekr and his band came from Jutland or, to be specific, from
Haithabu.

Sorry that you aren't aware that your assumptions are 100% false. THERE ARE
MORE THAN 50 CONTEMPORARY SOURCES PROVING YOU WRONG!!!!!!

Start by reading Rimbert's Vita Ansgari from 870's and compare it with the
later written Nestors Chronicle.
Continue by going thru the Historians of Bysans including the Fathers of the
Church. Add to that the Khazarian papers. As for the Varjags you seem to
have missed the fantastic fact that when you throw 'the last Varjag' out of
Russia he was the son of a Swedish Bishop(of Linköping) who's brother was
King of Sweden AND that there descendants up to this day have documentation
in Kaga and Vreta parish.

Inger E
regards

David Holiman

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av David Holiman » 12 nov 2004 21:33:07

"Inger E Johansson" <ingerx_xe.johanssonx@telia.com> wrote in message news:<TgIkd.8465$d5.71659@newsb.telia.net>...
Arpad,
I suggest you to read the Khazarian papers from 1020's and compare them with
the Nestor's Chronicle - the names in your version aren't the same as in the
others.

Inger E
"Arpad" <arpadia@centrum.cz> skrev i meddelandet
news:b062caa9.0411110025.799cb5b7@posting.google.com...
frizyuk@yahoo.com (Andrey Frizyuk) wrote...
arpadia@centrum.cz (Arpad) wrote...

Bot the Goths came from Goetar province of Sweden, just like the
Russians originated in Roslagen province of the same country, and the
Englishmen came from Sleswig-Holstein. Hey, once upon a time we all
were neighbours!

Arpad

So the Russians "originated" in Sweden? Interesting...

And what about other Slavic people, Czechs and Poles, did they also
"originate" in Scandinavia? :)

Best wishes,
Andrei

There is an ancient legend that there were three brothers - Lech,
Czech and Rus - whose progeny were Poles, Czechs and Russians,
respectively. Rus is not a Slavic name, as you know. The origins of
Czech and Lech are Slavic. Lech is short for /ledenin/, i.e. a man
plowing virgin lands. Czech is short for /chetnik/, from /cheta/, i.e.
a military detachment.

Arpad
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Any connection between "Czech," and "Cheka," the name for Lenin's
goon squad ? Also, "Chechin" ?
DAVID H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Paul J Kriha

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Paul J Kriha » 13 nov 2004 05:54:42

David Holiman <dcholiman@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:4315ddc6.0411121233.317bf55a@posting.google.com...
"Inger E Johansson" <ingerx_xe.johanssonx@telia.com> wrote in message
news:<TgIkd.8465$d5.71659@newsb.telia.net>...
Arpad,
I suggest you to read the Khazarian papers from 1020's and compare them with
the Nestor's Chronicle - the names in your version aren't the same as in the
others.

Inger E
"Arpad" <arpadia@centrum.cz> skrev i meddelandet
news:b062caa9.0411110025.799cb5b7@posting.google.com...
frizyuk@yahoo.com (Andrey Frizyuk) wrote...
arpadia@centrum.cz (Arpad) wrote...

Bot the Goths came from Goetar province of Sweden, just like the
Russians originated in Roslagen province of the same country, and the
Englishmen came from Sleswig-Holstein. Hey, once upon a time we all
were neighbours!

Arpad

So the Russians "originated" in Sweden? Interesting...

And what about other Slavic people, Czechs and Poles, did they also
"originate" in Scandinavia? :)

Best wishes,
Andrei

There is an ancient legend that there were three brothers - Lech,
Czech and Rus - whose progeny were Poles, Czechs and Russians,
respectively. Rus is not a Slavic name, as you know. The origins of
Czech and Lech are Slavic. Lech is short for /ledenin/, i.e. a man
plowing virgin lands. Czech is short for /chetnik/, from /cheta/, i.e.
a military detachment.

Arpad

Any connection between "Czech," and "Cheka," the name for Lenin's
goon squad ? Also, "Chechin" ?
DAVID H

Cheka is a Russian acronym of Chrezvychainaya Komissiya
(Extraordinary Commission set up to combat counter revolution).

Today, Cheta is a military unit of AFAIK three squads of twelve
or more soldiers. The word is probably a borrowing from Latin
originally designating a unit of one hundred fighters.

Czechy (or C^a'chy) was a name of a Slavic tribe in the central
Bohemian plateau recorded by the Arab and other traders
and backpackers more than 1200 years ago.

The sound made by the Prague sparrows recorded in Czech
fairytails is "chim-chah-rah-rah chim, chim, chim".

All these are just about equally related.

Paul JK

PS. Sorry I failed to include the also mentioned Georgian Chechens.
I run out of will to live. :-)

Arpad

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Arpad » 13 nov 2004 12:16:18

"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kriha@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message news:<z8Gkd.881$3U4.77185@news02.tsnz.net>...
Arpad <arpadia@centrum.cz> wrote in message news:b062caa9.0411110025.799cb5b7@posting.google.com...
There is an ancient legend that there were three brothers - Lech,
Czech and Rus - whose progeny were Poles, Czechs and Russians,
respectively. Rus is not a Slavic name, as you know. The origins of
Czech and Lech are Slavic. Lech is short for /ledenin/, i.e. a man
plowing virgin lands. Czech is short for /chetnik/, from /cheta/, i.e.
a military detachment.

Arpad

Oh, don't be silly. It's all junk.
I bet you cut and pasted it from Radio Prague's childish
crappola web page. You are too gullible.

Paul JK

Do you have a better explanation of "Czech" and "Lech"? If so, let us know.

Arpad

Paul J Kriha

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Paul J Kriha » 13 nov 2004 13:46:18

Arpad <arpadia@centrum.cz> wrote in message news:b062caa9.0411130316.5441adc3@posting.google.com...
"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kriha@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:<z8Gkd.881$3U4.77185@news02.tsnz.net>...
Arpad <arpadia@centrum.cz> wrote in message
news:b062caa9.0411110025.799cb5b7@posting.google.com...
There is an ancient legend that there were three brothers - Lech,
Czech and Rus - whose progeny were Poles, Czechs and Russians,
respectively. Rus is not a Slavic name, as you know. The origins of
Czech and Lech are Slavic. Lech is short for /ledenin/, i.e. a man
plowing virgin lands. Czech is short for /chetnik/, from /cheta/, i.e.
a military detachment.

Arpad

Oh, don't be silly. It's all junk.
I bet you cut and pasted it from Radio Prague's childish
crappola web page. You are too gullible.

Paul JK

Do you have a better explanation of "Czech" and "Lech"? If so, let us know.

Arpad

Tell me, if you were not given any other explanation would you
really believe that there actually were three brothers, Lech,
Czech and Rus. :-)

Would you believe me if I told you ancient legends about their
cousins Wendy, Yukra, Kroat, Serbo, and Slovo? And uncle Boolga?
:-)

But seriously, Czechy (or C^a'chy) was the name of a small
Slavic tribe which settled in the central area of the Bohemian
plateau before or around 600 AD.
Gradually, over the centuries this tribe took political control
of the surrounding tribal areas of the plateau, eg Zlic^any to
the East, Doudleby to the South, etc.
Eventually, all Slavs in Bohemia and Moravia became known
as Czechs.

The linguistic origins of the old, old, words like C^a'chy, Zlic^any,
Doudleby, Lechy, Rusy, etc. are complex, sometimes obscure
and have been discussed here and elsewhere ad nauseum
by much better experts than me.

Paul JK

Stelucia

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Stelucia » 13 nov 2004 15:44:39

"Alan Crozier" <alan.crazier@telia.com> wrote in message news:<3d1ld.121715$dP1.418198@newsc.telia.net>...
"Stelucia" <Stelucia@altavista.net> wrote in message
news:b1eb5832.0411120326.1cb7b27e@posting.google.com...

snip
As a note,
"ungurean" doesn't mean a Hungarian, it means a Romanian from
Transylvania, also called Tara Ungureasca.

Interesting. So what do the Romanians call the Hungarians to distinguish
them from the Romanians of Transylvania? Is it "ungur"?

Alan

Alan

In Romanian language, the suffix "ean" designates a geographical
origin, not ethnicity. The archaic word "ungurean" was used until the
middle of XIX century to label an ethnic Romanian from Transylvania.
Nowadays we use the term "ardelean" for a Romanian of Transylvanian
origin, Ardeal being the Romanian name for Trasylvania.
Moldovean means a person from Moldova and muntean a person from
Muntenia but also someone originally from the mountains ("munte" is
mountain in Romanian).

As for Hungarians, they are usually called maghiar/maghiari if they
are ethnic Hungarians living in Romania and ungur/unguri if they are
citizens of Hungary. Following a similar pattern, the term "moldovean"
is used for people living in the Romanian province of Moldova while
the citizens of Republic of Moldova are informally called
basarabean/basarabeni as the Moldova between Prut and Dniestr was also
known under the name of Basarabia.

Alan Crozier

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Alan Crozier » 13 nov 2004 16:58:14

"Stelucia" <Stelucia@altavista.net> wrote in message
news:b1eb5832.0411130644.12215ec3@posting.google.com...
"Alan Crozier" <alan.crazier@telia.com> wrote in message
news:<3d1ld.121715$dP1.418198@newsc.telia.net>...
"Stelucia" <Stelucia@altavista.net> wrote in message
news:b1eb5832.0411120326.1cb7b27e@posting.google.com...

snip
As a note,
"ungurean" doesn't mean a Hungarian, it means a Romanian from
Transylvania, also called Tara Ungureasca.

Interesting. So what do the Romanians call the Hungarians to distinguish
them from the Romanians of Transylvania? Is it "ungur"?

Alan

Alan

In Romanian language, the suffix "ean" designates a geographical
origin, not ethnicity. The archaic word "ungurean" was used until the
middle of XIX century to label an ethnic Romanian from Transylvania.
Nowadays we use the term "ardelean" for a Romanian of Transylvanian
origin, Ardeal being the Romanian name for Trasylvania.
Moldovean means a person from Moldova and muntean a person from
Muntenia but also someone originally from the mountains ("munte" is
mountain in Romanian).

As for Hungarians, they are usually called maghiar/maghiari if they
are ethnic Hungarians living in Romania and ungur/unguri if they are
citizens of Hungary. Following a similar pattern, the term "moldovean"
is used for people living in the Romanian province of Moldova while
the citizens of Republic of Moldova are informally called
basarabean/basarabeni as the Moldova between Prut and Dniestr was also
known under the name of Basarabia.

Multumesc

Alan

--
Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden

Angantyr

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Angantyr » 13 nov 2004 20:44:13

"A Tsar Is Born" <atsarisborn@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4f8c75b.0411111500.54c6fd91@posting.google.com...
frizyuk@yahoo.com (Andrey Frizyuk) wrote in message
news:<5534a4c5.0411101226.3655c69f@posting.google.com>...
arpadia@centrum.cz (Arpad) wrote in message
news:<b062caa9.0411100704.6d535db9@posting.google.com>...

Bot the Goths came from Goetar province of Sweden, just like the
Russians originated in Roslagen province of the same country, and the
Englishmen came from Sleswig-Holstein. Hey, once upon a time we all
were neighbours!

Arpad

So the Russians "originated" in Sweden? Interesting...

No, the Russians did NOT originate in Sweden, and no one but Arpad
(aren't you a Magyar and therefore not even Indo-European?) ever said
they did.

The NAME "Rus" originated in Sweden. Three brothers, the eldest being
Rurik, went a-viking through what is now Russia, and near Kiev the
local tribes, who were in some disorder, begged them to take over.
They did. Eventually the tribes adopted the name "Rus."

Similarly the name "Bulgar" is Ugric, from a people related to the
Hungarians and other Central Asians, but the Bulgarian people are not,
and their language is not. They are Slavs whom the Bulgar khan
conquered. They adopted his name, and completely absorbed their
conquerors.

The Bulgars were another of the Hunnic/Turkic peoples. They are not Related
to the Hungarians, much less more specifically Ugric. Then again, Ugric
speakers are also not related to Central Asians. Ugris people, such as the
Hungarian, the Hanty and the Mansi reside in Central Europe (in the case of
the Hungarians) and in nothern Siberia just east of the Urals (in the case
of the other Ugric peoples).
>

Philip Anderson

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Philip Anderson » 13 nov 2004 23:49:11

Paul J Kriha wrote in message ...
Arpad <arpadia@centrum.cz> wrote in message
news:b062caa9.0411130316.5441adc3@posting.google.com...
"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kriha@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:<z8Gkd.881$3U4.77185@news02.tsnz.net>...
Arpad <arpadia@centrum.cz> wrote in message
news:b062caa9.0411110025.799cb5b7@posting.google.com...
There is an ancient legend that there were three brothers - Lech,
Czech and Rus - whose progeny were Poles, Czechs and Russians,
respectively. Rus is not a Slavic name, as you know. The origins
of
Czech and Lech are Slavic. Lech is short for /ledenin/, i.e. a
man
plowing virgin lands. Czech is short for /chetnik/, from /cheta/,
i.e.
a military detachment.

Tell me, if you were not given any other explanation would you
really believe that there actually were three brothers, Lech,
Czech and Rus. :-)

I wouldn't believe that, but I might believe that there is an ancient
legend to that effect (or at least a medieval fiction - c.f. Locrinus,
Camber and Albanactus, the three sons of Brutus, after whom England,
Wales and Scotland were named) - not that all "ancient legends" are
necessarily so of course.

Unfortunately there are plenty of people who think that anything written
in the past that claims to be true, not only must have some truth in it
but was believed by the writer. After all, Homer's Odyssey is in the
non-fiction section of the library ...

hwyl/cheers
Philip Anderson
Cymru/Wales

Herman Rubin

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Herman Rubin » 15 nov 2004 01:47:53

In article <1100445969.10366.0@lotis.uk.clara.net>,
Philip Anderson <nospam@pjanderson.freeuk.com> wrote:
Paul J Kriha wrote in message ...

Arpad <arpadia@centrum.cz> wrote in message
news:b062caa9.0411130316.5441adc3@posting.google.com...
"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kriha@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:<z8Gkd.881$3U4.77185@news02.tsnz.net>...
Arpad <arpadia@centrum.cz> wrote in message
news:b062caa9.0411110025.799cb5b7@posting.google.com...

.....................

Unfortunately there are plenty of people who think that anything written
in the past that claims to be true, not only must have some truth in it
but was believed by the writer. After all, Homer's Odyssey is in the
non-fiction section of the library ...

What is considered to be literature is in the non-fiction
section of the library, as is religion and philosophy.
I suspect that Homer believed that the Odyssey was at least
essentially true, including the actions of the gods.

It seems that whatever idea one can imagine, you will find
people who believe it. Whether there is truth in it is
quite another matter.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

Peter T. Daniels

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Peter T. Daniels » 15 nov 2004 04:55:42

Herman Rubin wrote:
In article <1100445969.10366.0@lotis.uk.clara.net>,
Philip Anderson <nospam@pjanderson.freeuk.com> wrote:
Paul J Kriha wrote in message ...

Arpad <arpadia@centrum.cz> wrote in message
news:b062caa9.0411130316.5441adc3@posting.google.com...
"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kriha@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:<z8Gkd.881$3U4.77185@news02.tsnz.net>...
Arpad <arpadia@centrum.cz> wrote in message
news:b062caa9.0411110025.799cb5b7@posting.google.com...

.....................

Unfortunately there are plenty of people who think that anything written
in the past that claims to be true, not only must have some truth in it
but was believed by the writer. After all, Homer's Odyssey is in the
non-fiction section of the library ...

What is considered to be literature is in the non-fiction
section of the library, as is religion and philosophy.
I suspect that Homer believed that the Odyssey was at least
essentially true, including the actions of the gods.

Homer isn't in Fiction because it's Poetry.

It seems that whatever idea one can imagine, you will find
people who believe it. Whether there is truth in it is
quite another matter.

Prose fiction, however "great" it may be considered as literature --
Jane Austen, Mark Twain, James Joyce, Thomas Pynchon -- is in Fiction.
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net

Larry Swain

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Larry Swain » 15 nov 2004 05:36:12

"Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
Herman Rubin wrote:

In article <1100445969.10366.0@lotis.uk.clara.net>,
Philip Anderson <nospam@pjanderson.freeuk.com> wrote:
Paul J Kriha wrote in message ...

Arpad <arpadia@centrum.cz> wrote in message
news:b062caa9.0411130316.5441adc3@posting.google.com...
"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kriha@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:<z8Gkd.881$3U4.77185@news02.tsnz.net>...
Arpad <arpadia@centrum.cz> wrote in message
news:b062caa9.0411110025.799cb5b7@posting.google.com...

.....................

Unfortunately there are plenty of people who think that anything written
in the past that claims to be true, not only must have some truth in it
but was believed by the writer. After all, Homer's Odyssey is in the
non-fiction section of the library ...

What is considered to be literature is in the non-fiction
section of the library, as is religion and philosophy.
I suspect that Homer believed that the Odyssey was at least
essentially true, including the actions of the gods.

Homer isn't in Fiction because it's Poetry.

It seems that whatever idea one can imagine, you will find
people who believe it. Whether there is truth in it is
quite another matter.

Prose fiction, however "great" it may be considered as literature --
Jane Austen, Mark Twain, James Joyce, Thomas Pynchon -- is in Fiction.


It depends very much on the library, and very much on the system
of classification.

One public library at which I used to work has Homer's works in
Fiction, in non-Fiction subcategorized and included in:
Religion: Mythology, Poetry, Classical Literature in
translation, Greek literature; and Children's. That comes
pretty close to covering it.

Paul J Kriha

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Paul J Kriha » 15 nov 2004 06:12:49

Philip Anderson <nospam@pjanderson.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:1100445969.10366.0@lotis.uk.clara.net...
Paul J Kriha wrote in message ...

Arpad <arpadia@centrum.cz> wrote in message
news:b062caa9.0411130316.5441adc3@posting.google.com...
"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kriha@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:<z8Gkd.881$3U4.77185@news02.tsnz.net>...
Arpad <arpadia@centrum.cz> wrote in message
news:b062caa9.0411110025.799cb5b7@posting.google.com...
There is an ancient legend that there were three brothers - Lech,
Czech and Rus - whose progeny were Poles, Czechs and Russians,
respectively. Rus is not a Slavic name, as you know. The origins
of
Czech and Lech are Slavic. Lech is short for /ledenin/, i.e. a
man
plowing virgin lands. Czech is short for /chetnik/, from /cheta/,
i.e.
a military detachment.

Tell me, if you were not given any other explanation would you
really believe that there actually were three brothers, Lech,
Czech and Rus. :-)

I wouldn't believe that, but I might believe that there is an ancient
legend to that effect (or at least a medieval fiction - c.f. Locrinus,
Camber and Albanactus, the three sons of Brutus, after whom England,
Wales and Scotland were named) - not that all "ancient legends" are
necessarily so of course.

The short story "Father C^ech" is the first story in Alois Jirasek's
Old Czech Legends. It mentions two brothers Czech and Lech.
He wrote it in 1890. (somebody must have added Rus in the last
few decades).

In the Preface to Old Czech Legend, Marie Holecek says:
"... Jirasek did not list a bibliography, probably because he did not
consider it necessary in an inspirational work for young people.
He never claimed that the Legends were literally true: after all,
they are 'legends' and not history...."

Jirasek's Legends were intended for children, just like the
various American stories of Father Christmas invented
(by Coka Cola advertising?) at about the same time.

Some of Jirasek's legends are based on truly old legends.
For example, his Pr^emysl story is based on writing of Kosmas
who died in 1125. But he wasn't like Kosmas. Kosmas was a
matter-of-fact chronicler, who tried to write as accurately as
was possible in his day. He usually said this I witnessed, or
this I was told by an eye witness, or this happened long time
ago and I heard it said by many.


Unfortunately there are plenty of people who think that anything written
in the past that claims to be true, not only must have some truth in it
but was believed by the writer. After all, Homer's Odyssey is in the
non-fiction section of the library ...

True.

Old Czech Legends is something the children read in the primary
school. Even when young as that, they are usually not led to believe
that the stories are literally true. Viz Bruncvik, who in his story
befriends and cures an injured lion who comes with him home -
hence the 13th century (sometime before1213) change of the
state's coat of arms from the Premyslids' double headed she-eagle
to a double tailed he-lion. The true origins of the lion imagery are
obviously of somewhat different provenance.

Paul JK

hwyl/cheers
Philip Anderson
Cymru/Wales

M. Ranjit Mathews

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av M. Ranjit Mathews » 15 nov 2004 11:16:44

"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote ...

Homer isn't in Fiction because it's Poetry.
Prose fiction, however "great" it may be considered as literature --
Jane Austen, Mark Twain, James Joyce, Thomas Pynchon -- is in Fiction.

Are "Death of a Salesman" and "Merchant of Venice" in Fiction?

How about David Copperfield, Jude the Obscure and The Opium Eater
which are not entirely fiction insofar as being (to some extent) based
on the authors' lives?

How about the Book of Job vs. The Divine Comedy? The latter fiction
and the former not even though it's something Dante could have written
in his spare time?

Peter T. Daniels

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Peter T. Daniels » 15 nov 2004 15:06:39

M. Ranjit Mathews wrote:
"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote ...

Homer isn't in Fiction because it's Poetry.
Prose fiction, however "great" it may be considered as literature --
Jane Austen, Mark Twain, James Joyce, Thomas Pynchon -- is in Fiction.

Are "Death of a Salesman" and "Merchant of Venice" in Fiction?

Of course not. They're in Drama.

How about David Copperfield, Jude the Obscure and The Opium Eater
which are not entirely fiction insofar as being (to some extent) based
on the authors' lives?

Of course they are. (Biography and Autobiography are a separate section
also.)

How about the Book of Job vs. The Divine Comedy? The latter fiction
and the former not even though it's something Dante could have written
in his spare time?

The former Bible, the latter Poetry.

Your assessment of Job is most unfortunate. Have you studied the
original?

I understand that UDC, a baroque elaboration of the Dewey Decimal
System, is used in most of the world, and I know that its categories for
such things are the same as Dewey's, first set out in 1876.
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net

Des Small

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Des Small » 15 nov 2004 15:15:45

"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> writes:

I understand that UDC, a baroque elaboration of the Dewey Decimal
System, is used in most of the world, and I know that its categories for
such things are the same as Dewey's, first set out in 1876.

Bits of the world that are British university libraries, in my
experience, favour the Library of Congress system, which is not
coincidentally the one I'm most used to.

The single most annoying feature is that the fiction is filed under
(original) language and that in Britain, at least, they hardly ever
have translations.

Des
doesn't see much point to standalone Eng. lit. courses
--
"[T]he structural trend in linguistics which took root with the
International Congresses of the twenties and early thirties [...] had
close and effective connections with phenomenology in its Husserlian
and Hegelian versions." -- Roman Jakobson

Peter T. Daniels

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Peter T. Daniels » 15 nov 2004 15:53:34

Des Small wrote:
"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> writes:

I understand that UDC, a baroque elaboration of the Dewey Decimal
System, is used in most of the world, and I know that its categories for
such things are the same as Dewey's, first set out in 1876.

Bits of the world that are British university libraries, in my
experience, favour the Library of Congress system, which is not
coincidentally the one I'm most used to.

Really! When I was in London in 1992, my B&B behind the BM was also next
to the Library Association, where I was able to photocopy the 800s (into
which the 400s had recently been folded) of UDC; and I also was able to
enquire at the BSI bookshop about purchasing the fascicles of UDC that
they publish. They came out at £1 ca. 1970; in 1992 they were £50+
apiece.

A few years later, a (I think) complete set of them -- maybe half a
dozen -- turned up at the Newberry Library sale in Chicago at $1 apiece,
or maybe it was $1 for the whole batch.

My point being, and I do have one, the office that elaborates it is now
in Britain. (Both the DDC and LC offices are in the Library of
Congress.)

The single most annoying feature is that the fiction is filed under
(original) language and that in Britain, at least, they hardly ever
have translations.

Des
doesn't see much point to standalone Eng. lit. courses
--

Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net

Des Small

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Des Small » 15 nov 2004 16:04:33

"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> writes:

Des Small wrote:

"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> writes:

I understand that UDC, a baroque elaboration of the Dewey Decimal
System, is used in most of the world, and I know that its categories for
such things are the same as Dewey's, first set out in 1876.

Bits of the world that are British university libraries, in my
experience, favour the Library of Congress system, which is not
coincidentally the one I'm most used to.

Really! When I was in London in 1992, my B&B behind the BM was also next
to the Library Association, where I was able to photocopy the 800s (into
which the 400s had recently been folded) of UDC; and I also was able to
enquire at the BSI bookshop about purchasing the fascicles of UDC that
they publish. They came out at £1 ca. 1970; in 1992 they were £50+
apiece.

A few years later, a (I think) complete set of them -- maybe half a
dozen -- turned up at the Newberry Library sale in Chicago at $1 apiece,
or maybe it was $1 for the whole batch.

My point being, and I do have one, the office that elaborates it is now
in Britain. (Both the DDC and LC offices are in the Library of
Congress.)

Well public libraries here use what I always thought was plain Dewey
but is presumably UDC, but what little funding they still have seems
to be largely targeted at DVDs and videos, presumably because, unlike
books, the private sector can't sustain lenders of these.

[...]

Des
uses them for language courses and not much else
--
"[T]he structural trend in linguistics which took root with the
International Congresses of the twenties and early thirties [...] had
close and effective connections with phenomenology in its Husserlian
and Hegelian versions." -- Roman Jakobson

erilar

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av erilar » 15 nov 2004 19:32:50

In article <yyrjk6snjiy7.fsf@pc156.maths.bris.ac.uk>, Des Small
<des.small@bristol.ac.uk> wrote:

Bits of the world that are British university libraries, in my
experience, favour the Library of Congress system, which is not
coincidentally the one I'm most used to.

I've worked with both systems and found LC easier to find things in in
one year with it than Dewey, which I've been cursed with the rest of my
life.

--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)

You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument
is that reason doesn't count. Isaac Asimov

Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo

Peter T. Daniels

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Peter T. Daniels » 15 nov 2004 20:30:07

Des Small wrote:

Well public libraries here use what I always thought was plain Dewey
but is presumably UDC, but what little funding they still have seems
to be largely targeted at DVDs and videos, presumably because, unlike
books, the private sector can't sustain lenders of these.

[...]

Des
uses them for language courses and not much else

The easiest way to distinguish them is that UDC numbers can be shorter
than 3 digits, and DDC numbers can't; also, UDC can construct very long
numbers (for very short works) by compounding them with a variety of
punctuation marks (a technique adopted from S. R. Ranganathan's Colon
Classification).
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net

Peter T. Daniels

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Peter T. Daniels » 15 nov 2004 20:33:21

erilar wrote:
In article <yyrjk6snjiy7.fsf@pc156.maths.bris.ac.uk>, Des Small
des.small@bristol.ac.uk> wrote:

Bits of the world that are British university libraries, in my
experience, favour the Library of Congress system, which is not
coincidentally the one I'm most used to.

I've worked with both systems and found LC easier to find things in in
one year with it than Dewey, which I've been cursed with the rest of my
life.

--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)

LC is less _interesting_, because to accommodate new topics they can
just add new numbers. In the Decimal classifications, you need to
analyze the topics and fit new ones into the existing patterns. Though
each decade for the last several editions, the DDC people have thrown up
their hands and out the entire old scheme for one or two areas -- 780
Music is the one most users are most likely to have been affected by.
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net

Igor Sklar

Czech, Lech, Rus (re: Beowulf was the king of Goths)

Legg inn av Igor Sklar » 15 nov 2004 21:17:28

"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kriha@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message news:<LUWld.1376$3U4.116149@news02.tsnz.net>...
Philip Anderson <nospam@pjanderson.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:1100445969.10366.0@lotis.uk.clara.net...
Tell me, if you were not given any other explanation would you
really believe that there actually were three brothers, Lech,
Czech and Rus. :-)

I wouldn't believe that, but I might believe that there is an ancient
legend to that effect (or at least a medieval fiction - c.f. Locrinus,
Camber and Albanactus, the three sons of Brutus, after whom England,
Wales and Scotland were named) - not that all "ancient legends" are
necessarily so of course.

The short story "Father C^ech" is the first story in Alois Jirasek's
Old Czech Legends. It mentions two brothers Czech and Lech.
He wrote it in 1890. (somebody must have added Rus in the last
few decades).

AFAIK the first authors to mention Czech, Lech and Rus (or Mech?) were
Boguchwal of Poznan (+1253) and Pribík Pulkava z Radenína (in 1374).
As late as the mid-18th century Lomonosov affirmed that Czech and Lech
were Slavic kings living in the mid-6th century, "according to a
testimony of Polish chronicles". He regarded Rus as a fictitious
person, added just for convenience. An even earlier historian,
Tatischev, described all three brothers as "a fantasy of the Polish
and Czech authors".

regards

M. Ranjit Mathews

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av M. Ranjit Mathews » 15 nov 2004 21:39:14

Thanks for responding. Apologies for the pesky questions; I thought I
was trying to get to the bottom of some inscrutable Peter Daniels
medthodology for excluding works from consideration as fiction. Later,
I found that it was about what kinds of work libraries classify as
fiction.

"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote ...
M. Ranjit Mathews wrote:

"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote ...

Homer isn't in Fiction because it's Poetry.
Prose fiction, however "great" it may be considered as literature --
Jane Austen, Mark Twain, James Joyce, Thomas Pynchon -- is in Fiction.

Are "Death of a Salesman" and "Merchant of Venice" in Fiction?

Of course not. They're in Drama.

How about David Copperfield, Jude the Obscure and The Opium Eater
which are not entirely fiction insofar as being (to some extent) based
on the authors' lives?

Of course they are. (Biography and Autobiography are a separate section
also.)

How about the Book of Job vs. The Divine Comedy? The latter fiction
and the former not even though it's something Dante could have written
in his spare time?

The former Bible, the latter Poetry.

Your assessment of Job is most unfortunate. Have you studied the
original?

I understand that UDC, a baroque elaboration of the Dewey Decimal
System, is used in most of the world, and I know that its categories for
such things are the same as Dewey's, first set out in 1876.

Paul J Kriha

Re: Czech, Lech, Rus (re: Beowulf was the king of Goths)

Legg inn av Paul J Kriha » 16 nov 2004 06:57:16

Igor Sklar <yaroslavl@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:870e846a.0411151217.269f5537@posting.google.com...
"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kriha@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:<LUWld.1376$3U4.116149@news02.tsnz.net>...
Philip Anderson <nospam@pjanderson.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:1100445969.10366.0@lotis.uk.clara.net...
Tell me, if you were not given any other explanation would you
really believe that there actually were three brothers, Lech,
Czech and Rus. :-)

I wouldn't believe that, but I might believe that there is an ancient
legend to that effect (or at least a medieval fiction - c.f. Locrinus,
Camber and Albanactus, the three sons of Brutus, after whom England,
Wales and Scotland were named) - not that all "ancient legends" are
necessarily so of course.

The short story "Father C^ech" is the first story in Alois Jirasek's
Old Czech Legends. It mentions two brothers Czech and Lech.
He wrote it in 1890. (somebody must have added Rus in the last
few decades).

AFAIK the first authors to mention Czech, Lech and Rus (or Mech?) were
Boguchwal of Poznan (+1253) and Pribík Pulkava z Radenína (in 1374).
As late as the mid-18th century Lomonosov affirmed that Czech and Lech
were Slavic kings living in the mid-6th century, "according to a
testimony of Polish chronicles". He regarded Rus as a fictitious
person, added just for convenience. An even earlier historian,
Tatischev, described all three brothers as "a fantasy of the Polish
and Czech authors".
regards

I'd go along with what you say Tatischev said.
In around 600, the Slavic tribe of Czechs was just one of
many, many, tribes in the area. Some of the other tribes
in their neighbourhood were bigger and at the time more
powerful ones.

Paul JK

Gjest

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 nov 2004 00:03:10

Although the Goths first appear in present-day Poland, they claimed that
their homeland was in Scandinavia, and the archaeological evidence is
consistent with that. And "Geat" and "Goth" could well be cognate.


Nothing "unsubstantiated" about it. The origin of the Goths in southern
modern Sweden is and always has been the accepted, standard, traditional
belief.

Really? Because Jordanes says so? Perhaps you've read something
I haven't, but since Jordanes is our only source, and Jordanes
has been known to be wrong on a thing or two, it is hardly a
critical stance to accept what any ancient author says about the
mists of time. Unfortunately there is no archaeological
evidence to support Jordanes claim; yes there are connections
between cultures in Poland and cultures in Sweden at this time,
but that doesn't mean that the former derived from teh latter,
and there are differences too. And differences in linguistic
development are also highly suggestive.

As for the cognate Geat and Goth, both descend from
proto-Germanic *Gautr-- i. e. the word or name existed before a
seperate people did.


i'm not sure about Beowulf, but the old-swedish dialect of Gotland has
some caracteristic traits that do remind one of Gothic (as is noted in
the still very usefull Handbook of Old-Norse, which unfortunately i
don't have at hand right now, otherwise i would have been able to give
some examples).

greetings, erik

Gjest

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 nov 2004 00:18:33

Similarly when an Irish tribe, the Scots, conquered the Picts in
northern Britain ... well, you get the idea. (I hope.)

At least modern scottish gaelic is derived from Old-Irish and not from
the language of the Picts. Some Place-names in Scotland are clearly
Briton and not Goidelic.

The most recent such example, at least in Europe, came in 1859, when
the principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia were united into one
country and, rather than call it Wallachia-Moldavia (or their language
Vlach, as it had been called for centuries), someone got the bright
idea of calling it all "Romania," a name once used for what historians
call the Byzantine Empire but long disused. It caught on.


And the names Vlach and Wallachian have a germanic origin. Germanic
peoples used a similar root for all kinds of neighbouring peoples
whose language they found hard to understand. Wales/Welsh (britonic
Celts bordering the Anglo-Saxons), Wallonia/Walloon (northern areas of
French, bordering on Dutch and German dialects), Kauderwelsch (the
"welsh" of Chur, the German name for Rhaeto-romance of Switzerland (in
the past also western parts of Austria and Northern parts of Italy),
Koeterwaals (Dutch for any form of speech one cannot understand or
comprehend, derived from Kauderwelsch)) and ofcourse Rotwelsch (German
for the secret language of thieves and other underworld-people).

greetings, erik

Larry Swain

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Larry Swain » 17 nov 2004 06:35:04

iwantlambert@yahoo.com wrote:
Although the Goths first appear in present-day Poland, they claimed that
their homeland was in Scandinavia, and the archaeological evidence is
consistent with that. And "Geat" and "Goth" could well be cognate.


Nothing "unsubstantiated" about it. The origin of the Goths in southern
modern Sweden is and always has been the accepted, standard, traditional
belief.

Really? Because Jordanes says so? Perhaps you've read something
I haven't, but since Jordanes is our only source, and Jordanes
has been known to be wrong on a thing or two, it is hardly a
critical stance to accept what any ancient author says about the
mists of time. Unfortunately there is no archaeological
evidence to support Jordanes claim; yes there are connections
between cultures in Poland and cultures in Sweden at this time,
but that doesn't mean that the former derived from teh latter,
and there are differences too. And differences in linguistic
development are also highly suggestive.

As for the cognate Geat and Goth, both descend from
proto-Germanic *Gautr-- i. e. the word or name existed before a
seperate people did.


i'm not sure about Beowulf, but the old-swedish dialect of Gotland has
some caracteristic traits that do remind one of Gothic (as is noted in
the still very usefull Handbook of Old-Norse, which unfortunately i
don't have at hand right now, otherwise i would have been able to give
some examples).

Of course it does....as do all the Germanic languages.

Larry Swain

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Larry Swain » 17 nov 2004 06:36:46

iwantlambert@yahoo.com wrote:

Similarly when an Irish tribe, the Scots, conquered the Picts in
northern Britain ... well, you get the idea. (I hope.)

At least modern scottish gaelic is derived from Old-Irish and not from
the language of the Picts. Some Place-names in Scotland are clearly
Briton and not Goidelic.


The most recent such example, at least in Europe, came in 1859, when
the principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia were united into one
country and, rather than call it Wallachia-Moldavia (or their language
Vlach, as it had been called for centuries), someone got the bright
idea of calling it all "Romania," a name once used for what historians
call the Byzantine Empire but long disused. It caught on.


And the names Vlach and Wallachian have a germanic origin. Germanic
peoples used a similar root for all kinds of neighbouring peoples
whose language they found hard to understand. Wales/Welsh (britonic
Celts bordering the Anglo-Saxons), Wallonia/Walloon (northern areas of
French, bordering on Dutch and German dialects), Kauderwelsch (the
"welsh" of Chur, the German name for Rhaeto-romance of Switzerland (in
the past also western parts of Austria and Northern parts of Italy),
Koeterwaals (Dutch for any form of speech one cannot understand or
comprehend, derived from Kauderwelsch)) and ofcourse Rotwelsch (German
for the secret language of thieves and other underworld-people).

Bringing it back to Beowulf...the wealh-in Wealhtheow is

considered the Germanic word for "welsh" though it is pure
speculation whether the name in Beowulf should be taken as
simply a name, or as meaningful as "welsh slave" and of course
did it mean "welsh" in any sense that we would recognize....all
good questions.

Igor Sklar

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Igor Sklar » 17 nov 2004 16:29:49

iwantlambert@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<397210d7.0411161518.1523d9d6@posting.google.com>...
Similarly when an Irish tribe, the Scots, conquered the Picts in
northern Britain ... well, you get the idea. (I hope.)

At least modern scottish gaelic is derived from Old-Irish and not from
the language of the Picts. Some Place-names in Scotland are clearly
Briton and not Goidelic.


The most recent such example, at least in Europe, came in 1859, when
the principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia were united into one
country and, rather than call it Wallachia-Moldavia (or their language
Vlach, as it had been called for centuries), someone got the bright
idea of calling it all "Romania," a name once used for what historians
call the Byzantine Empire but long disused. It caught on.


And the names Vlach and Wallachian have a germanic origin. Germanic
peoples used a similar root for all kinds of neighbouring peoples
whose language they found hard to understand. Wales/Welsh (britonic
Celts bordering the Anglo-Saxons), Wallonia/Walloon (northern areas of
French, bordering on Dutch and German dialects), Kauderwelsch (the
"welsh" of Chur, the German name for Rhaeto-romance of Switzerland (in
the past also western parts of Austria and Northern parts of Italy),
Koeterwaals (Dutch for any form of speech one cannot understand or
comprehend, derived from Kauderwelsch)) and ofcourse Rotwelsch (German
for the secret language of thieves and other underworld-people).

greetings, erik

The Slavic and Germanic names are ultimately derived from Celtic. The
same root is represented in the Volcae of Caesar and perhaps in the
Gaelic word /folc/, i.e. quick, lively.

regards

Gjest

Re: Beowulf was the king of Goths /redux/

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 nov 2004 03:11:49

i'm not sure about Beowulf, but the old-swedish dialect of Gotland has
some caracteristic traits that do remind one of Gothic (as is noted in
the still very usefull Handbook of Old-Norse, which unfortunately i
don't have at hand right now, otherwise i would have been able to give
some examples).

Of course it does....as do all the Germanic languages.

Now i'm at home, let's see what the Handbook says,

1 germ. ai/au stay ai/au (but ai/au were still ai/au in the
pre-Runic-Norse at the time the Goths would have lived here)
2 old-Gutnish has i/u where other Old-Norse dialects had e/o, except
that u>o before r. This is not a very spectacular similarity,
especially since i before r is not mentioned.
3 two words that are cognate only in Gothic and Old-Gutnish.

There seems to be little to go on, just forget i ever came up with it.

greetings, erik.

Svar

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