As a followup to Douglas Richardson's posts on the de la Mare/Montfort
ancestry, what relationship, if any, do the following have:
Hawise de Courcy, daughter of William and Margaret d'Avranches and
Alice de Courcy, daughter of William and Gundreda de Warenne
Hawise m. Reynold de Courtenay
Robert de Courtenay m. Mary de Reviers
Hawise de Courtenay m. John de Neville, who is evidently is the son of
Hugh de Neville and Joan de Cornhill, the last being the daughter of
Henry de Cornhill and Alice de Courcy above.
If Hawise and Alice are half-sisters, then John de Neville and Hawise
de Courtenay would be second cousins of the half blood.
Can anyone shed some light on this? Also, Gundreda de Warenne, wife
of William de Courcy is the product of which marriage by Gundred de
Warenne, daughter of Wlliam de Warenne and Isabel Vermandois: Roger
de Newburgh, Earl of Warwick or William de Lancester, 5th Baron
Kendal?
Many thanks.
de Courcy followup to Montfort/Montagu/de la Mare
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: de Courcy followup to Montfort/Montagu/de la Mare
Dear Martin ~
Thank you for your post. Good to hear from you!
The following information on the Courcy family is taken from a chart
found in the book, Stogursey Charters, edited by T.D. Tremlett and
Noel Blakiston (Somerset Rec. Soc. 61) (1949), pg. xxiv. I believe
the descent is reasomably reliable, but it is totally lacking in
documentation.
1. Baldric, m. niece of Gilbert, count of Brionne
2. Robert de Curci, 3rd son.
3. Richard de Curci, temp. William I & II, m. Wandelmode
4. William de Curci I, m. Emma, daughter of William de Falaise
5. William de Curci II, d. 1125-30, m. Avice, daughter of William
Meschin
6. William de Curci III, d. 1177, m. Gundred de Warenne
7. Alice de Curci, d. c. 1218, m. (1) Henry de Cornhill, d. 1192-3; m.
(2nd) Warin Fitz-Gerold, d. 1218
8. Joan de Cornhill, d. 1228-9, m. Hugh de Neville, d. 1233/4.
9. John de Neville, d. 1246, m. Hawise de Courtenay
As you can see, there is no indication of how the above family
connects to the Courcy family which is found in Hawise de Courtenay's
ancestry. However, I'm sure the two Courcy families are related to
one another.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
mhollick@mac.com (Martin E. Hollick) wrote in message news:<5d20e7f.0411091511.3e40f7b6@posting.google.com>...
Thank you for your post. Good to hear from you!
The following information on the Courcy family is taken from a chart
found in the book, Stogursey Charters, edited by T.D. Tremlett and
Noel Blakiston (Somerset Rec. Soc. 61) (1949), pg. xxiv. I believe
the descent is reasomably reliable, but it is totally lacking in
documentation.
1. Baldric, m. niece of Gilbert, count of Brionne
2. Robert de Curci, 3rd son.
3. Richard de Curci, temp. William I & II, m. Wandelmode
4. William de Curci I, m. Emma, daughter of William de Falaise
5. William de Curci II, d. 1125-30, m. Avice, daughter of William
Meschin
6. William de Curci III, d. 1177, m. Gundred de Warenne
7. Alice de Curci, d. c. 1218, m. (1) Henry de Cornhill, d. 1192-3; m.
(2nd) Warin Fitz-Gerold, d. 1218
8. Joan de Cornhill, d. 1228-9, m. Hugh de Neville, d. 1233/4.
9. John de Neville, d. 1246, m. Hawise de Courtenay
As you can see, there is no indication of how the above family
connects to the Courcy family which is found in Hawise de Courtenay's
ancestry. However, I'm sure the two Courcy families are related to
one another.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
mhollick@mac.com (Martin E. Hollick) wrote in message news:<5d20e7f.0411091511.3e40f7b6@posting.google.com>...
As a followup to Douglas Richardson's posts on the de la Mare/Montfort
ancestry, what relationship, if any, do the following have:
Hawise de Courcy, daughter of William and Margaret d'Avranches and
Alice de Courcy, daughter of William and Gundreda de Warenne
Hawise m. Reynold de Courtenay
Robert de Courtenay m. Mary de Reviers
Hawise de Courtenay m. John de Neville, who is evidently is the son of
Hugh de Neville and Joan de Cornhill, the last being the daughter of
Henry de Cornhill and Alice de Courcy above.
If Hawise and Alice are half-sisters, then John de Neville and Hawise
de Courtenay would be second cousins of the half blood.
Can anyone shed some light on this? Also, Gundreda de Warenne, wife
of William de Courcy is the product of which marriage by Gundred de
Warenne, daughter of Wlliam de Warenne and Isabel Vermandois: Roger
de Newburgh, Earl of Warwick or William de Lancester, 5th Baron
Kendal?
Many thanks.
-
Gjest
Re: de Courcy followup to Montfort/Montagu/de la Mare
Thursday, 11 November, 2004
Dear Doug, Martin, et al.,
As you said, the question of a relationship between Hugh de Courtenay's
Curci ancestors and those of John de Neville of Hallingbury is still open.
There was an old thread on SGM on the same matter: I have copied Chris Phillip's
detailed post below for your reference.
There are other disconnected Courcys about (incl. Robert, the son in law
of Hugh de Grandmesnil). Perhaps some advance in reconnecting the family may
yet occur.
Cheers,
John
From: Chris Phillips (cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk)
Subject: Re: Richard de Curcy of Newenham, Oxon - Same as Nuneham Courtenay?
View: Complete Thread (7 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2003-07-28 13:55:16 PST
Jim Weber wrote:
I had a chance to look at the Victoria County History of Oxfordshire, vol.
5, pp,. 237-240, today.
This does confirm that Nuneham Courtenay was known as Newenham before the
mid-18th century, and that it is the same manor held by the Courcys shown in
the chart in CP.
However, the route by which it came to the Courtenays is given as follows:
William III de Courcy (d. 1176) married Gundreda de Warenne (d. 1224), who
held Nuneham as her dower.
The heirs were initially the daughters, Joan and Margaret, of William and
Gundreda's daughter Alice, by two marriages.
Eventually, in a partition, Nuneham fell to Margaret (d. 1252), who had
married firstly Baldwin de Riviers, son of William, Earl of Devon, and
secondly Fawkes de Bréauté.
Margaret's grandson and heir, Baldwin de Riviers, Earl of Devon (d. 1262)
was succeeded by his sister Isabel de Forz, who died without surviving issue
in 1293.
The succession to Isabel's estates was long disputed between Hugh de
Courtenay, who claimed as her heir through her grandfather Baldwin, and
Warin de Insula/de Lisle (and later his son and heir Robert), who claimed as
her heir through her grandmother Margaret/Margery [Cal. Close Rolls,
1307-1313, pp. 273, 274].
The basis of Warin's claim is shown in the chart pedigree in CP viii,
between pages 48 and 49 - Warin's grandfather, Robert de Lisle, had married
Alice, daughter and eventual heir (or in her issue heir) of Henry
FitzGerold, the brother of Warin FitzGerold, who was the husband of Alice de
Courcy and father of Margaret.
For Hugh's relationship, see the chart on CP iv 335 - Hugh's great
grandfather Robert de Courtenay married Mary, the sister of of Baldwin de
Reviers, husband of Margaret.
The curious thing is that according to the Close Roll (and also Calendar of
Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 5, p. 202 - both cited by the VCH), it was
found by inquisition that Newenham ought to descend to Hugh de Courtenay "as
nearest heir to the said Isabella as of the inheritance falling to her of
the part of Baldwin, her grandfather and kinsman of the said Hugh". This
despite the fact that it clearly came from Baldwin's wife Margaret, and
before that from her mother Alice, who was unrelated to either of the
claimants. At any rate, there's no indication of any involvement of Hugh's
great great grandmother Hawise (de Courcy?) in his claim to Newenham.
On the question of who was the William de Courcy shown as the father of this
Hawise in CP's chart at iv 317 (albeit with a query whether his name was
actually Geoffrey de Crunes), it's worth noting a relevant difference
between the accounts of the Courcys given by VCH and by Domesday Descendants
(p. 428).
DD gives:
(1) William I (son of Richard and Wandelmode) = Emma de Falaise; he d. c.
1114
(2) William II = Avice, dau and coheir of William Meschin; he d. bef. 1130
(3) William III = Gundrada de Warenne; he d. 1171
(4) William IV, came of age 1189, d. 1194 s.p.
VCH gives:
(1) William I = Emma de Falaise; he d. bef. 1130
(2) William II, prob. d. by 1155
(3) William III = 2ndly Gundrada de Warenne; he d. 1176
[Nothing is said about William IV as Nuneham was held in dower by Gundrada
until her death in 1224]
I have no idea which set of dates is more correct (the chart in CP viii
agrees in making William II die c. 1130). On either account, if the William
de Courcy shown as Hawise's father is one of these, it can only be William
II, and that only if he survived Avice and remarried to Maud d'Avranches.
Chris Phillips
Dear Doug, Martin, et al.,
As you said, the question of a relationship between Hugh de Courtenay's
Curci ancestors and those of John de Neville of Hallingbury is still open.
There was an old thread on SGM on the same matter: I have copied Chris Phillip's
detailed post below for your reference.
There are other disconnected Courcys about (incl. Robert, the son in law
of Hugh de Grandmesnil). Perhaps some advance in reconnecting the family may
yet occur.
Cheers,
John
From: Chris Phillips (cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk)
Subject: Re: Richard de Curcy of Newenham, Oxon - Same as Nuneham Courtenay?
View: Complete Thread (7 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2003-07-28 13:55:16 PST
Jim Weber wrote:
CP VIII:48-9 has a chart which includes the following line of the
Curcy family of Stogursey, Somerset:
1. Richard de Curcy, of Newenham, Oxon.
2. William I de Curcy, Sewer of Henry I.
3. William II de Curcy, d. c. 1130 = Avice or Amice de Rumelli,
daughter & coh. c. 1135 of William de Meschines (sic. - s/b "le")
4. William III de Curcy [= Gundreda de Warenne per Rosie Bevan, EYC
III:471].
5. Alice de Curcy = (1) Henry de Cornhill, (2) Warin FitzGerold, c.
1167-1216
I have not been able to find a "Newenham" in Oxon. However I did find
"Nuneham Courtenay", which as the name implies, was held by members of
the Courtenay family. [snip]
If Nuneham Courtenay is actually the same as Newenham, and, if it
descended in a similar manner as Okehampton from the marriage of
William de Curcy & Maud d'Avranches (except through William and not
Maud), then this might be proof that the "William de Curcy", husband
of Maud d'Avranches is truly William de Curcy and not Geoffrey de
Crunes/Craon (note (a) on the chart states that there was conflicting
evidence as to the husband of Maud d'Avranches). Newenham/Nuneham
could also tie the ancestry of William de Curcy into that of Richard
de Curcy, of Newenham, Oxon.
I had a chance to look at the Victoria County History of Oxfordshire, vol.
5, pp,. 237-240, today.
This does confirm that Nuneham Courtenay was known as Newenham before the
mid-18th century, and that it is the same manor held by the Courcys shown in
the chart in CP.
However, the route by which it came to the Courtenays is given as follows:
William III de Courcy (d. 1176) married Gundreda de Warenne (d. 1224), who
held Nuneham as her dower.
The heirs were initially the daughters, Joan and Margaret, of William and
Gundreda's daughter Alice, by two marriages.
Eventually, in a partition, Nuneham fell to Margaret (d. 1252), who had
married firstly Baldwin de Riviers, son of William, Earl of Devon, and
secondly Fawkes de Bréauté.
Margaret's grandson and heir, Baldwin de Riviers, Earl of Devon (d. 1262)
was succeeded by his sister Isabel de Forz, who died without surviving issue
in 1293.
The succession to Isabel's estates was long disputed between Hugh de
Courtenay, who claimed as her heir through her grandfather Baldwin, and
Warin de Insula/de Lisle (and later his son and heir Robert), who claimed as
her heir through her grandmother Margaret/Margery [Cal. Close Rolls,
1307-1313, pp. 273, 274].
The basis of Warin's claim is shown in the chart pedigree in CP viii,
between pages 48 and 49 - Warin's grandfather, Robert de Lisle, had married
Alice, daughter and eventual heir (or in her issue heir) of Henry
FitzGerold, the brother of Warin FitzGerold, who was the husband of Alice de
Courcy and father of Margaret.
For Hugh's relationship, see the chart on CP iv 335 - Hugh's great
grandfather Robert de Courtenay married Mary, the sister of of Baldwin de
Reviers, husband of Margaret.
The curious thing is that according to the Close Roll (and also Calendar of
Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 5, p. 202 - both cited by the VCH), it was
found by inquisition that Newenham ought to descend to Hugh de Courtenay "as
nearest heir to the said Isabella as of the inheritance falling to her of
the part of Baldwin, her grandfather and kinsman of the said Hugh". This
despite the fact that it clearly came from Baldwin's wife Margaret, and
before that from her mother Alice, who was unrelated to either of the
claimants. At any rate, there's no indication of any involvement of Hugh's
great great grandmother Hawise (de Courcy?) in his claim to Newenham.
On the question of who was the William de Courcy shown as the father of this
Hawise in CP's chart at iv 317 (albeit with a query whether his name was
actually Geoffrey de Crunes), it's worth noting a relevant difference
between the accounts of the Courcys given by VCH and by Domesday Descendants
(p. 428).
DD gives:
(1) William I (son of Richard and Wandelmode) = Emma de Falaise; he d. c.
1114
(2) William II = Avice, dau and coheir of William Meschin; he d. bef. 1130
(3) William III = Gundrada de Warenne; he d. 1171
(4) William IV, came of age 1189, d. 1194 s.p.
VCH gives:
(1) William I = Emma de Falaise; he d. bef. 1130
(2) William II, prob. d. by 1155
(3) William III = 2ndly Gundrada de Warenne; he d. 1176
[Nothing is said about William IV as Nuneham was held in dower by Gundrada
until her death in 1224]
I have no idea which set of dates is more correct (the chart in CP viii
agrees in making William II die c. 1130). On either account, if the William
de Courcy shown as Hawise's father is one of these, it can only be William
II, and that only if he survived Avice and remarried to Maud d'Avranches.
Chris Phillips