Holand/Radcliffe -- RPA and RD600 disagree

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Clagett, Brice

Holand/Radcliffe -- RPA and RD600 disagree

Legg inn av Clagett, Brice » 09 nov 2004 18:41:01

I wanted to look at sources before joining this thread; hence my delay.

_The Book of the Radclyffes_ (1940), by Charles P. Hampson, which is
generally quite good, says at p. 136 that Sir John Radcliffe married
Joan
de Holland, daughter of Sir Robert de Holland, 1st Lord Holland, and
widow
of Sir Hugh Dutton. Ormerod (Helsby ed., 1882) at 1:646 says that Sir
Hugh Dutton married Joan, daughter of Sir Robert Holland (which could
mean either the 1st Lord Holand or his father) and that Joan married (2)
Sir Edmund Talbot of Bashall, (3) Sir John Ratcliff of Ordsall.
(According
to _The Book of the Radclyffes_ she married (2) Sir John Radcliffe, (3)
Sir
Thomas Talbot of Bashall.) Ormerod has copious citations to a liber
which,
if I am correctly interpreting Sir Peter Leycester's footnote at 1:642,
is "ex chartulis Duttonorum de Dutton," but whether any of these
references
identifies Joan's parentage I cannot say.

However, chronology does suggest that Joan, if daughter of a Robert de
Holand, was sister rather than daughter of the 1st Lord Holand. He was
born
c. 1270 and married c. 1309-11. CP 6:528-31, RPA pp. 398-99. Joan de
Holand's oldest son, Sir Thomas Dutton, was born on Whitsunday 1314,
Ormerod 1:646; thus Joan must have been born by 1298 and probably
earlier. The only way she could have been Lord Holand's daughter is if
he
was married much earlier than CP suggests, which is possible given his
estimated year of birth. However, we have a firm date of birth in 1267
for Alan
La Zouche, Lord Zouche, father of Lord Holand's wife, Maud (who
according
to RPA p. 398 was aged 24 in 1314). It does not seem plausible that Alan
La
Zouche, b. 1267, was great-grandfather of Thomas Dutton, b. 1314. Thus
the
alleged Zouche-Holand-Radcliffe descent appears to be wrong.

Douglas Richardson at RPA pp. 290-93 offers an alternative descent for
the
Eltonhead sisters from the 1st Lord Holand. But this descent assumes
that
Sir William Stanley of Hooton ( d. 1512) was son of the preceding
William
Stanley by his wife Mary Savage. That William also had a wife Alice
Hoghton,
and I pointed out some time ago that sources differ on which wife was
the
mother of his children (as well as on the order of the wives). Douglas
replied that
he believed Mary Savage was the mother, but gave no reason. None of the
sources that he cites for this generation appears to be "primary
evidence."

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