FW: CP and Joan de Septvans

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Gordon Kirkemo

FW: CP and Joan de Septvans

Legg inn av Gordon Kirkemo » 07 nov 2004 22:01:01

Tim, Adrian, and Others,

Adrian's posting suggests a relationship between Joan de Septvans and Rose
de Penchester. Robert Battle posted twice in 2002 that Rose, wife of
Stephen de Penchester, was the daughter of Godfrey de Baseville and his wife
Hawise. Does anyone know how Rose (de Baseville) de Penchester is related
to Joan (de Septvans) de Cobham? Was Hawise, wife of Godfrey a Septvans?
Or was the wife of Robert IV related to Hawise?

Thanks,
Gordon Kirkemo

-----Original Message-----
From: ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com [mailto:ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 3:19 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: CP and Joan de Septvans

Tim,

There is quite a detailed account of the Septvans family in _Archaeologia
Cantiana, being transactions of the Kent Archaeological Society_ Vol XL
(1928) pp
105-130.

p 109
"The sister of the fifth Robert [de Septvans], Joan, one of the co-heirs of
Rose, widow of Stephen de Penchester, married John de Cobham, circa 1258.
Her
tomb is in the chancel of Cobham Church, with a brass inscription

Dame Joan de Cobham lies here
God be merciful to her soul and
to those whp pray for her soul..."

This fifth Robert de Septvans had a son (William) and there was further
descent, so I'm not sure how the above Rose fits in, and how Joan could be
her
co-heir, perhaps this was her husband's family. It might be best if you
obtained a
copy of this article, if you have difficulties finding it, let me know.

regards,
Adrian

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote;

In the Cobham article in Vol III, p. 343, it is said that Henry de
Cobham, 1st baron, was the son of John de C. and "Joan, da. and coh. of
Sir Robert de Septvans".

Ronny Bodine and Thomas Spalding in their "Ancestors of Dorothea
Poyntz", page 212, identify this Robert de Septvans as being of
Aldington, Kent, born c. 1250 and d. bef 20 Sep 1306.

The latter Robert de Septvans is almost certainly the Robert IV de
Septvans in Sanders' Baronies, page 1, who was a co-holder of the
Aldington feudal barony in Kent. But Sanders says that Robert IV had a
son William, d. 1322, who had a son William. Accordingly Joan who m.
Henry de Cobham could not have been an heir, or possibly only in her
issue and then only of her nephew William.

Has anyone got any better information?

The interest is that a Septvans of Aldington descent gives this Cobhan
branch a descent from a man in Domesday, one Helto.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org


Doug Smith

Re: FW: CP and Joan de Septvans

Legg inn av Doug Smith » 09 nov 2004 00:57:55

kirkemo@comcast.net ("Gordon Kirkemo") wrote in message news:<JNEBIPBDPPDCGBKMKHOGCEKIEMAA.kirkemo@comcast.net>...
Tim, Adrian, and Others,

Adrian's posting suggests a relationship between Joan de Septvans and Rose
de Penchester. Robert Battle posted twice in 2002 that Rose, wife of
Stephen de Penchester, was the daughter of Godfrey de Baseville and his wife
Hawise. Does anyone know how Rose (de Baseville) de Penchester is related
to Joan (de Septvans) de Cobham? Was Hawise, wife of Godfrey a Septvans?
Or was the wife of Robert IV related to Hawise?

Thanks,
Gordon Kirkemo

I believe it goes like this:

1. Sir John de1 COBHAM of Cobham, Sheriff of Kent, died Est 1270, son
of Henry de COBHAM and nn (---). He married (1) nn FITZBENEDICT; (2)
Joane de NEVILLE, daughter of Hugh I de NEVILLE of Hallingbury, Essex
and Joan de CORNHILL.

Notes for Sir John de COBHAM of Cobham, Sheriff of Kent

DEP, p 125.
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. I, pps 218-219.
Burke's Peerage (1934), Cobham.

Joan de Cobham possibly a daughter.

Children of Sir John de COBHAM of Cobham, Sheriff of Kent and nn
FITZBENEDICT were as follows:
+ 2 i Sir John de2 COBHAM.
+ 3 ii Sir Henry de2 COBHAM of Roundall and Alington, Kent.

Children of Sir John de COBHAM of Cobham, Sheriff of Kent and Joane
de NEVILLE were as follows:
4 i Sir Reginald de2 COBHAM of Okesden, constable of Dover Castle.
Notes: Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society,
(1929), Vol. I, p 218. Parl. Roll. Burke's Peerage (1934), Cobham.
+ 5 ii Joan de2 COBHAM.

Generation 2

2. Sir John de2 COBHAM (John de1), born Est 1240; died bef 30 Mar
1300. He married (1) Joan de SEPTVANS, born Est 1245, daughter of
Robert III de SEPTVANS and Isabel (---); (2) Methania (---).

Notes for Sir John de COBHAM
CP III: 338, 343-344.

AR 7: 246G.
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. I, pps 218-219.
Dering Roll.
Burke's Peerage (1934), Cobham.

Children of Sir John de COBHAM and Joan de SEPTVANS were as follows:
+ 6 i Sir Ralph de3 COBHAM 1st Lord Cobham.
+ 7 ii Sir Henry de3 COBHAM Lord Cobham of Kent.
+ 8 iii Sir John3 COBHAM of Blackborough.
9 iv James de3 COBHAM.

Children of Sir John de COBHAM and Methania (---) were as follows:
+ 10 i Sir Reginald de3 COBHAM.


3. Sir Henry de2 COBHAM of Roundall and Alington, Kent (John de1),
died aft 1 Nov 1314. He married (1) Margaret BAYNARD, died bef 13 aug
1295 (dsp), daughter of Robert BAYNARD; (2) Joan de PENESHERST, born
abt 1258; died bef 17 Nov 1324, daughter of Stephen de PENESHERST
(Pencestre) of Pehsurst and Tunstall, Kent and Rohese de BASEVILLE.

Notes for Sir Henry de COBHAM of Roundall and Alington, Kent

DEP, p 125.
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. I, pps 218-219.
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. IV, pps 32-35.
Charles, St George's, Dering Rolls.
Burke's Peerage (1934), Cobham.

Margaret Baynard had an heir Sir Thomas de Filiol, aged 26, (son of
Baldwin de Filiol), see Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The
Harleian Society, (1929), Vol. 2, p 26.

Children of Sir Henry de COBHAM of Roundall and Alington, Kent and
Joan de PENESHERST were as follows:
+ 11 i Sir Stephen de3 COBHAM Sheriff of Kent.
12 ii Sir Ralph de3 COBHAM. Notes: Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C
Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929), Vol. I, p 218.


Doug Smith

Gjest

Re: FW: CP and Joan de Septvans

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 nov 2004 17:11:01

Doug,

Thanks for your message.

It would seem to me then, that where Kent Archaeological Society states that
Robert de Septvans' _sister_ was Joan, a coheir of Rose widow of Stephen de
Penesherst, their term _sister_ actually means wife's brother's wife.

BTW, Penshurst Place, Sussex was for a long time owned by the Sidney's (earls
of Leicester, then De L'Isle.) The house is open to the public and the guide
states that a Sir John de Pulteney, London mayor, bought the house from the
Penchester family in 1338.



kirkemo@comcast.net ("Gordon Kirkemo") wrote in message news:
JNEBIPBDPPDCGBKMKHOGCEKIEMAA.kirkemo@comcast.net>...
Tim, Adrian, and Others,

Adrian's posting suggests a relationship between Joan de Septvans and Rose
de Penchester. Robert Battle posted twice in 2002 that Rose, wife of
Stephen de Penchester, was the daughter of Godfrey de Baseville and his
wife
Hawise. Does anyone know how Rose (de Baseville) de Penchester is related

to Joan (de Septvans) de Cobham? Was Hawise, wife of Godfrey a Septvans?
Or was the wife of Robert IV related to Hawise?

Thanks,
Gordon Kirkemo

I believe it goes like this:

1. Sir John de1 COBHAM of Cobham, Sheriff of Kent, died Est 1270, son
of Henry de COBHAM and nn (---). He married (1) nn FITZBENEDICT; (2)
Joane de NEVILLE, daughter of Hugh I de NEVILLE of Hallingbury, Essex
and Joan de CORNHILL.

Notes for Sir John de COBHAM of Cobham, Sheriff of Kent

DEP, p 125.
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. I, pps 218-219.
Burke's Peerage (1934), Cobham.

Joan de Cobham possibly a daughter.

Children of Sir John de COBHAM of Cobham, Sheriff of Kent and nn
FITZBENEDICT were as follows:
+ 2 i Sir John de2 COBHAM.
+ 3 ii Sir Henry de2 COBHAM of Roundall and Alington, Kent.

Children of Sir John de COBHAM of Cobham, Sheriff of Kent and Joane
de NEVILLE were as follows:
4 i Sir Reginald de2 COBHAM of Okesden, constable of Dover Castle.
Notes: Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society,
(1929), Vol. I, p 218. Parl. Roll. Burke's Peerage (1934), Cobham.
+ 5 ii Joan de2 COBHAM.

Generation 2

2. Sir John de2 COBHAM (John de1), born Est 1240; died bef 30 Mar
1300. He married (1) Joan de SEPTVANS, born Est 1245, daughter of
Robert III de SEPTVANS and Isabel (---); (2) Methania (---).

Notes for Sir John de COBHAM
CP III: 338, 343-344.

AR 7: 246G.
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. I, pps 218-219.
Dering Roll.
Burke's Peerage (1934), Cobham.

Children of Sir John de COBHAM and Joan de SEPTVANS were as follows:
+ 6 i Sir Ralph de3 COBHAM 1st Lord Cobham.
+ 7 ii Sir Henry de3 COBHAM Lord Cobham of Kent.
+ 8 iii Sir John3 COBHAM of Blackborough.
9 iv James de3 COBHAM.

Children of Sir John de COBHAM and Methania (---) were as follows:
+ 10 i Sir Reginald de3 COBHAM.


3. Sir Henry de2 COBHAM of Roundall and Alington, Kent (John de1),
died aft 1 Nov 1314. He married (1) Margaret BAYNARD, died bef 13 aug
1295 (dsp), daughter of Robert BAYNARD; (2) Joan de PENESHERST, born
abt 1258; died bef 17 Nov 1324, daughter of Stephen de PENESHERST
(Pencestre) of Pehsurst and Tunstall, Kent and Rohese de BASEVILLE.

Notes for Sir Henry de COBHAM of Roundall and Alington, Kent

DEP, p 125.
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. I, pps 218-219.
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. IV, pps 32-35.
Charles, St George's, Dering Rolls.
Burke's Peerage (1934), Cobham.

Margaret Baynard had an heir Sir Thomas de Filiol, aged 26, (son of
Baldwin de Filiol), see Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The
Harleian Society, (1929), Vol. 2, p 26.

Children of Sir Henry de COBHAM of Roundall and Alington, Kent and
Joan de PENESHERST were as follows:
+ 11 i Sir Stephen de3 COBHAM Sheriff of Kent.
12 ii Sir Ralph de3 COBHAM. Notes: Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C
Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929), Vol. I, p 218.


Doug Smith


Doug Smith

Re: FW: CP and Joan de Septvans

Legg inn av Doug Smith » 10 nov 2004 00:08:13

ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com wrote in message news:<8c.194644d2.2ec244e8@aol.com>...
Doug,

Thanks for your message.

It would seem to me then, that where Kent Archaeological Society states that
Robert de Septvans' _sister_ was Joan, a coheir of Rose widow of Stephen de
Penesherst, their term _sister_ actually means wife's brother's wife.

BTW, Penshurst Place, Sussex was for a long time owned by the Sidney's (earls
of Leicester, then De L'Isle.) The house is open to the public and the guide
states that a Sir John de Pulteney, London mayor, bought the house from the
Penchester family in 1338.

Another view:

1. Robert III de1 SEPTVANS, died bef 20 Jan 1253, son of Robert II de
SEPTVANS and Maud (---). He married Isabel (---).

Notes for Robert III de SEPTVANS
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. IV, p 243.
DD, p 711.
Sanders, p 1.

Children of Robert III de SEPTVANS and Isabel (---) were as follows:
+ 2 i Joan de2 SEPTVANS.
+ 3 ii Sir Robert IV de2 SEPTVANS.

Generation 2

2. Joan de2 SEPTVANS (Robert III de1), born Est 1245. She married Sir
John de COBHAM, born Est 1240; died bef 30 Mar 1300, son of Sir John
de COBHAM of Cobham, Sheriff of Kent and nn FITZBENEDICT.

Notes for Sir John de COBHAM
CP III: 338, 343-344.
AR 7: 246G.
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. I, pps 218-219.
Dering Roll.
Burke's Peerage (1934), Cobham.

Children of Joan de SEPTVANS and Sir John de COBHAM were as follows:
+ 4 i Sir Ralph de3 COBHAM 1st Lord Cobham.
+ 5 ii Sir Henry de3 COBHAM Lord Cobham of Kent.
+ 6 iii Sir John3 COBHAM of Blackborough.
7 iv James de3 COBHAM.


3. Sir Robert IV de2 SEPTVANS (Robert III de1), born abt 1250; died
bef 20 Sep 1306. He married nn (---).

Notes for Sir Robert IV de SEPTVANS
CP III: 343-344.
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. IV, p 243.
DD, p 711.
Sanders, p 1.

Children of Sir Robert IV de SEPTVANS and nn (---) were as follows:
+ 8 i Sir William de3 SEPTVANS Sheriff of Kent.

Generation 3

4. Sir Ralph de3 COBHAM 1st Lord Cobham (Joan de2 SEPTVANS, Robert III
de1), died 5 Feb 1325/26. He married Mary de BRAOSE, daughter of Sir
Peter I de BRAOSE of Tetbury and Agnes (Alys, Annys) de CLIFFORD.

Notes for Sir Ralph de COBHAM 1st Lord Cobham
CP III: 338.
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. I, pps 218-219.

Children of Sir Ralph de COBHAM 1st Lord Cobham and Mary de BRAOSE
were as follows:
9 i John de4 COBHAM 2nd Lord Cobham, born 1324/25; died dsp.


5. Sir Henry de3 COBHAM Lord Cobham of Kent (Joan de2 SEPTVANS, Robert
III de1), born abt 1260; died 25 Aug 1339 in Hacche. He married bef
Jul 1285 Maud de MORVILLE, daughter of Eudes de MORVILLE.

Notes for Sir Henry de COBHAM Lord Cobham of Kent
CP III: 343-351.
CP V: 465-471.
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. I, pps 218-219.

Children of Sir Henry de COBHAM Lord Cobham of Kent and Maud de
MORVILLE were as follows:
10 i John de4 COBHAM 2nd Lord Cobham, born abt 1285; died 25 Feb
1354/55. Notes: Faris, (1999), p 382. CP III: 343-344.
11 ii Margaret4 COBHAM, died 21 Jul 1357.


6. Sir John3 COBHAM of Blackborough (Joan de2 SEPTVANS, Robert III
de1). He married Anne BOLLAY.

Notes for Sir John COBHAM of Blackborough
AR 7: 246G.
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. I, pps 218-219.
The Visitation of the County of Devon, 1564, ed. Frederic Thomas
Colby, (1881), pps 10-12.

Children of Sir John COBHAM of Blackborough and Anne BOLLAY were as
follows:
12 i Isabel4 COBHAM.


8. Sir William de3 SEPTVANS Sheriff of Kent (Robert IV de2, Robert III
de1), born abt 1280; died bef 27 Oct 1322. He married (1) Elizabeth
PYMPE, daughter of Philip PYMPE of Nettlestead; (2) Katharine (---).

Notes for Sir William de SEPTVANS Sheriff of Kent
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. IV, pps 243-244.
Sanders, p 1.
Archaeological Cantiana, being Transactions of the Kent Archaelogical
Society, Vol, XL, (1928), pps 106-130.

Children of Sir William de SEPTVANS Sheriff of Kent and Elizabeth
PYMPE were as follows:
13 i William de4 SEPTVANS, born 1301; died 1351. Notes:
Archaeological Cantiana, being Transactions of the Kent Archaelogical
Society, Vol, XL, (1928), pps 106-130.
14 ii John de4 SEPTVANS. Notes: Archaeological Cantiana, being
Transactions of the Kent Archaelogical Society, Vol, XL, (1928), pps
106-130.
15 iii Simon de4 SEPTVANS (de Harflete).

Doug Smith

Gjest

Re: FW: CP and Joan de Septvans

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 nov 2004 12:11:01

Penshurst Place is not in Sussex but in Kent near Tonbridge.
Regards,
Alex

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