Elizabeth, wife of Lord Elphinstone & Lord Forbes

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Kelsey J. Williams

Elizabeth, wife of Lord Elphinstone & Lord Forbes

Legg inn av Kelsey J. Williams » 07 nov 2004 15:38:34

Hello,

Sometime before 1507 [1] Alexander Elphinstone of Elphinstone, soon to
be created the first Lord Elphinstone, married a woman named Elizabeth
who is described as "an Englishwoman who had come to Scotland in the
train of Margaret Tudor" [2]. He was killed at Flodden in 1513 and in
1515 she married, as his third wife, John Forbes, 6th Lord Forbes [3].
Nothing is known of her later life.

The surname of Elizabeth has long presented a problem to researchers.
The two spellings which can be backed up by contemporary records are:

(1) Barlee (CP V: 57, citing _Treasurer's Accounts_, Vol. III).

(2) Berclay (Tayler, 58, citing "numerous deeds in the Register House
where her name appears with that of Alexander Elphinstone").

Both of these names seem to be authentically English. A Barlee or
Barley family resided in Essex & Hertfordshire [4] and "Berclay"
sounds suspiciously like a mangling of "Berkeley". Can anyone offer
any suggestions as to a possible origin for Elizabeth or suggest
further records to search? Are there any surviving records dealing
with the household of the Princess Margaret from an English rather
than a Scottish viewpoint?

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

Sources:
[1] CP V: 57.
[2] Alistair Tayler, _The House of Forbes_ (Aberdeen: The Third
Spalding Club, 1937), 58.
[3] ibid.
[4] George W. Marshall, _The Genealogist's Guide_ (1903; reprinted,
Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., 1980), 46.

James Dempster

Re: Elizabeth, wife of Lord Elphinstone & Lord Forbes

Legg inn av James Dempster » 07 nov 2004 16:05:38

On 7 Nov 2004 06:38:34 -0800, gkkwilliams@cowboy.net (Kelsey J.
Williams) wrote:


Both of these names seem to be authentically English. A Barlee or
Barley family resided in Essex & Hertfordshire [4] and "Berclay"
sounds suspiciously like a mangling of "Berkeley". Can anyone offer
any suggestions as to a possible origin for Elizabeth or suggest
further records to search? Are there any surviving records dealing
with the household of the Princess Margaret from an English rather
than a Scottish viewpoint?

With a caveat as to its accuracy since it has always struck me as a

confused document, a secondary source is "Barlow Family Records" by
Sir Montague Barlow. I believe that it does discuss the possible
sources for the identity of Elizabeth but produces nothing conclusive.

There used to be a reproduction of the whole book online but the only
one I can find at present is that held by Ancestry.com to which I'm
not a subscriber.

James
James Dempster (remove nospam to reply by email)

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.

Chris Phillips

Re: Elizabeth, wife of Lord Elphinstone & Lord Forbes

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 07 nov 2004 16:20:17

James Dempster wrote:
With a caveat as to its accuracy since it has always struck me as a
confused document, a secondary source is "Barlow Family Records" by
Sir Montague Barlow. I believe that it does discuss the possible
sources for the identity of Elizabeth but produces nothing conclusive.

There used to be a reproduction of the whole book online but the only
one I can find at present is that held by Ancestry.com to which I'm
not a subscriber.

There seems to be a PDF version here, on a website produced by Susan Barlow
Holmes:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... sindex.htm.

Chris Phillips

Kelsey J. Williams

Re: Elizabeth, wife of Lord Elphinstone & Lord Forbes

Legg inn av Kelsey J. Williams » 08 nov 2004 15:41:00

Hello,

Thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately, the online version pointed
by Chris has no index but I shall see what can be found nonetheless.

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

James Dempster <usenet@talksinsentences.nospam.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message news:<g0eso05st2lag6flr9upoiuoogicfb9f15@4ax.com>...
On 7 Nov 2004 06:38:34 -0800, gkkwilliams@cowboy.net (Kelsey J.
Williams) wrote:


Both of these names seem to be authentically English. A Barlee or
Barley family resided in Essex & Hertfordshire [4] and "Berclay"
sounds suspiciously like a mangling of "Berkeley". Can anyone offer
any suggestions as to a possible origin for Elizabeth or suggest
further records to search? Are there any surviving records dealing
with the household of the Princess Margaret from an English rather
than a Scottish viewpoint?

With a caveat as to its accuracy since it has always struck me as a
confused document, a secondary source is "Barlow Family Records" by
Sir Montague Barlow. I believe that it does discuss the possible
sources for the identity of Elizabeth but produces nothing conclusive.

There used to be a reproduction of the whole book online but the only
one I can find at present is that held by Ancestry.com to which I'm
not a subscriber.

James
James Dempster (remove nospam to reply by email)

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.

Chris Phillips

Re: Elizabeth, wife of Lord Elphinstone & Lord Forbes

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 17 nov 2004 09:42:49

Kelsey J. Williams wrote:
<<
Sometime before 1507 [1] Alexander Elphinstone of Elphinstone, soon to
be created the first Lord Elphinstone, married a woman named Elizabeth
who is described as "an Englishwoman who had come to Scotland in the
train of Margaret Tudor" [2]. He was killed at Flodden in 1513 and in
1515 she married, as his third wife, John Forbes, 6th Lord Forbes [3].
Nothing is known of her later life.

The surname of Elizabeth has long presented a problem to researchers.
The two spellings which can be backed up by contemporary records are:

(1) Barlee (CP V: 57, citing _Treasurer's Accounts_, Vol. III).

(2) Berclay (Tayler, 58, citing "numerous deeds in the Register House
where her name appears with that of Alexander Elphinstone").

Yesterday I came across a work from 1897 by Sir William Fraser entitled "The
Elphinstone Family Book of the Lords Elphinstone, Balmerino and Coupar".

Fraser generally calls Elizabeth "Barlow" in the text, and when he is
summarising records it's not clear whether this is the spelling used, or
whether he is "standardising". But in some cases he gives alternative
spellings, which presumably come from the rcords:
(1) In a comparatively modern inventory of Elphinstone muniments is listed
the marriage contract (since lost) between Alexander Lord Elphinstone and
Elizabeth "Berlay" (vol. 1, p. 39).
(2) Letters to several people, dated 8 August 1507, to give sasine to
Alexander Elphinstone and Elizabeth "Barlay" (p. 40).
(3) In an original document reciting Letters Patent, "Barlai".
(4) In an original document, "Barley".

He also refers to some entries in the Register of the Great Seal of Scotland
[vol. 2] 1424-1513. From the index, the entries mentioning her are nos 3115,
3132, 3159, 3251 and 3875. All these use the spelling "Berlay", and the last
of these also has "Barley".

From all this it looks as though Berlay or Barley is the correct surname.

Chris Phillips

Kelsey J. Williams

Re: Elizabeth, wife of Lord Elphinstone & Lord Forbes

Legg inn av Kelsey J. Williams » 17 nov 2004 23:28:38

Hello,

Thanks for this information. This would seem to be additional
confirmation of Sir Montague Barlow's claim (on p. 46 of _Barlow
Family Records_) that Elizabeth was daughter of John Barlow/Barley who
was a grandson of Sir Thomas Barlow of Barlow. His only source for
this information is a 1739 MS. pedigree of the family but as it is
principally concerned with the ancestry Sir John Barlow, 1st Bt.,
there seems little reason to suppose Elizabeth's connection to this
family is falsified.

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

"Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:<cnf33n$avr$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Kelsey J. Williams wrote:

Sometime before 1507 [1] Alexander Elphinstone of Elphinstone, soon to
be created the first Lord Elphinstone, married a woman named Elizabeth
who is described as "an Englishwoman who had come to Scotland in the
train of Margaret Tudor" [2]. He was killed at Flodden in 1513 and in
1515 she married, as his third wife, John Forbes, 6th Lord Forbes [3].
Nothing is known of her later life.

The surname of Elizabeth has long presented a problem to researchers.
The two spellings which can be backed up by contemporary records are:

(1) Barlee (CP V: 57, citing _Treasurer's Accounts_, Vol. III).

(2) Berclay (Tayler, 58, citing "numerous deeds in the Register House
where her name appears with that of Alexander Elphinstone").


Yesterday I came across a work from 1897 by Sir William Fraser entitled "The
Elphinstone Family Book of the Lords Elphinstone, Balmerino and Coupar".

Fraser generally calls Elizabeth "Barlow" in the text, and when he is
summarising records it's not clear whether this is the spelling used, or
whether he is "standardising". But in some cases he gives alternative
spellings, which presumably come from the rcords:
(1) In a comparatively modern inventory of Elphinstone muniments is listed
the marriage contract (since lost) between Alexander Lord Elphinstone and
Elizabeth "Berlay" (vol. 1, p. 39).
(2) Letters to several people, dated 8 August 1507, to give sasine to
Alexander Elphinstone and Elizabeth "Barlay" (p. 40).
(3) In an original document reciting Letters Patent, "Barlai".
(4) In an original document, "Barley".

He also refers to some entries in the Register of the Great Seal of Scotland
[vol. 2] 1424-1513. From the index, the entries mentioning her are nos 3115,
3132, 3159, 3251 and 3875. All these use the spelling "Berlay", and the last
of these also has "Barley".

From all this it looks as though Berlay or Barley is the correct surname.

Chris Phillips

Chris Phillips

Re: Elizabeth, wife of Lord Elphinstone & Lord Forbes

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 26 nov 2004 11:32:53

Kelsey J. Williams wrote:
<<
This would seem to be additional
confirmation of Sir Montague Barlow's claim (on p. 46 of _Barlow
Family Records_) that Elizabeth was daughter of John Barlow/Barley who
was a grandson of Sir Thomas Barlow of Barlow. His only source for
this information is a 1739 MS. pedigree of the family but as it is
principally concerned with the ancestry Sir John Barlow, 1st Bt.,
there seems little reason to suppose Elizabeth's connection to this
family is falsified.

I spent some time yesterday looking for evidence to support (or disprove)
the pedigree quoted by Sir Montague Barlow. The relevant part of his book is
available here (PDF file):
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... R-CH6B.pdf

The pedigree (apparently quoted secondhand by Barlow, but originally from
Add. MS 24120, p. 37 - now in the British Library) gives a skeletal descent
of John Barlow Esqr from the Lancashire Barlows, and shows his marriage to
"Christian daughter of Edwd Barley of Barley Com. Hertford Esqr."

Then there is a detailed note on John and his children, beginning:
"John Barlow father of Roger Barlow and who marryd the daughter of Edwd
Barlay was Committed prisoner to the Tower of London in the reign of K. Har.
the 7th for harbouring his Brother Barlay and Sr Robt Clifford who marryd
Mr. Barley's Sister at Barlow ye night before thyr departure unto Margt
Duchess of Burgundy Sister to K. Edwd ... he had his whole estate taken from
him and given to Vere Earl of Oxford then newly created Ld high Chancellor
of England, and detaind in prison till he had released all his hereditary
right to ye sd Vere, after which he was with great difficulty released and
freed from all Imputation of Treason by which means his four sons and one
daughter were destitute of all manner of substance and forcd to seek their
fortunes."

Details are then given of the sons: Thomas, a secular priest, Roger, later
of Pembrokeshire, John, chaplain to Anne Boleyn, and William, Bishop of
Chichester (d. 1569).

Then there is this on their daughter, who seems to be unnamed:
"The DAUGHTER was taken as Companion with ye countess of Oxford into
Scotland with Mary Queen of Scots which Queen on ye departure of the English
ladys requested Mrs Barlow to continue with her made her a Maid of honour
afterwd she marryd Ld Elwston of whom she had Issue Ld Elwston afterwds she
marryd Ld Drumman from whence all ye Drummans are Lineally descended."

Barlow corrects Christian's parentage to make her the daughter of _Henry_
Barley of Albury, presumably because the MS identifies Warbeck's supporter
William Barley as John Barlow's brother [in law].

Barlow goes on to discuss what he considers some circumstantial evidence in
favour of John Barlow's descent from the Lancashire family. But he then
quotes (second-hand again) a statement from the Welsh Visitation of
1586-1613 that John Barlow was of "Barlow Hall by Colchester, Essex".
Judging by his footnote, however, "by Colchester, Essex" may be a later
addition to the visitation pedigree. On this basis he suggests that John
Barlow may have been a descendant of the Barleys of Hertfordshire and Essex
(i.e. his wife's family).

The account quoted from the MS contains some obvious mistakes (Mary Queen of
Scots, the Vere Lord Chancellor and so on), but it seems to have been
swallowed whole by the new DNB, garnished with some of Sir Montague's
Barlow's speculations. The article on William Barlow by Glanmor Williams
begins:
"Barlow, William (d. 1568), bishop of Chichester, was probably the second
son of John Barlow and his wife, Christian, daughter and heir of Henry
Barlow of Albury, Hertfordshire, and a descendant of the Essex-Hertfordshire
branch of the landed family of Barlow, deprived of its possessions after
being involved in Perkin Warbeck's revolt of 1497."

At the end of the article the other siblings given in the MS are listed,
including Elizabeth, the wife of Alexander, Lord Elphinstone.

The new DNB lumps all its references together at the end of each article,
but looking at them I suspect the information about William's parentage and
siblings comes solely from Barlow's book. Obviously it's wrong in some
respects:
(1) Whoever Christian was, we know she wasn't the _heir_ of Henry Barley of
Albury. The only indication I've seen that she was an heir is a pedigree of
some Barlow descendants in a 17th-century Sussex visitation (reproduced by
Barlow), in which the Barlow arms quarter those of Barley of Albury.
(2) There was no "Essex-Hertfordshire branch of the landed family of
Barlow" - this comes from Barlow's speculation that John Barlow may have
descended from the Essex-Hertfordshire _Barleys_. But no Barlows appear in
the index of either the Hertfordshire VCH or Morant's History of Essex.
(3) I looked at the entry concerning the attainder of William Barley of
Albury and others (Rot. Parl. vi 503-506), and couldn't see any mention of a
John Barlow. The entry ran to several pages and the volume didn't have an
index, so conceivably I could have missed it, but I don't think it was
there. So I'm sceptical about this story of John Barlow being deprived of
his possessions.

Going back to more solid ground, the original DNB had a scholarly article on
William Barlow by T. F. Tout. All Tout says of his family is that he "was,
it is said, a native of Essex, though Fuller was unable to ascertain in what
county he was born". Cooper (Ath. Cantabr. i 276-280) also says he was born
in Essex, and points out that his early church offices were all in Essex.
Boase (Register of the University of Oxford, i 304) lists a John Barlow ...
fellow of Corpus, 4 July 1517, from Essex [perhaps William's brother].

So several secondary sources, apparently independently, do point towards
Essex as the family's place of origin. Following up the Colchester
reference, I checked the PRO catalogue and came up with a couple of
references. One from 1486-1529, concerns Robert Barlowe, of Colchester,
nephew of Roger Barlowe, late citizen and tailor of London. v. William
Brothers and William Dolphyn, executors of Richard Shore, husband of
Beatrice, late the wife of Roger Barlowe. Robert Barlowe, merchant is also a
party to the other, dated 1500-1515, concerning a tenement in Colchester and
land in Barfold, Essex.

Roger Barlow or Barlowe, tailor of London, left a will, dated 1492 and
proved in the PCC, 1493. He mentions both a brother John Barlowe and a son
John Barlowe. So perhaps this is the right family, though the evidence is
very thin. (I see that Barlow (p. 50) mentions this Roger Barlow in a
footnote as a possible relation, though I can't work out why!)

There are also PCC wills for three of the sons of John Barlow (according to
the MS pedigree) - Thomas Barlowe (pr. 1558), Roger Barlowe of Slebech (pr.
1554 and again 1558) and William Barlowe (pr. 1568), but I couldn't see, in
a cursory look at them, anything bearing on their parentage, or anything
relating to their supposed sister Elizabeth.

Going back to the original point about Elizabeth's parentage, the one thing
that really puzzles me is that in contemporary documents she seems always to
be called Berlay, Barlai or a variant, while her supposed brothers are
consistently called Barlow or Barlowe (though some secondary sources give
William an alias of Finch). I can't help wondering whether there is some
sort of confusion over Elizabeth's identity in the MS pedigree, particularly
as her mother seems to have been a Barley.

Chris Phillips

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