CP and Joan de Septvans
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
CP and Joan de Septvans
In the Cobham article in Vol III, p. 343, it is said that Henry de
Cobham, 1st baron, was the son of John de C. and "Joan, da. and coh. of
Sir Robert de Septvans".
Ronny Bodine and Thomas Spalding in their "Ancestors of Dorothea
Poyntz", page 212, identify this Robert de Septvans as being of
Aldington, Kent, born c. 1250 and d. bef 20 Sep 1306.
The latter Robert de Septvans is almost certainly the Robert IV de
Septvans in Sanders' Baronies, page 1, who was a co-holder of the
Aldington feudal barony in Kent. But Sanders says that Robert IV had a
son William, d. 1322, who had a son William. Accordingly Joan who m.
Henry de Cobham could not have been an heir, or possibly only in her
issue and then only of her nephew William.
Has anyone got any better information?
The interest is that a Septvans of Aldington descent gives this Cobhan
branch a descent from a man in Domesday, one Helto.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Cobham, 1st baron, was the son of John de C. and "Joan, da. and coh. of
Sir Robert de Septvans".
Ronny Bodine and Thomas Spalding in their "Ancestors of Dorothea
Poyntz", page 212, identify this Robert de Septvans as being of
Aldington, Kent, born c. 1250 and d. bef 20 Sep 1306.
The latter Robert de Septvans is almost certainly the Robert IV de
Septvans in Sanders' Baronies, page 1, who was a co-holder of the
Aldington feudal barony in Kent. But Sanders says that Robert IV had a
son William, d. 1322, who had a son William. Accordingly Joan who m.
Henry de Cobham could not have been an heir, or possibly only in her
issue and then only of her nephew William.
Has anyone got any better information?
The interest is that a Septvans of Aldington descent gives this Cobhan
branch a descent from a man in Domesday, one Helto.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Gjest
Re: CP and Joan de Septvans
Tim,
There is quite a detailed account of the Septvans family in _Archaeologia
Cantiana, being transactions of the Kent Archaeological Society_ Vol XL (1928) pp
105-130.
p 109
"The sister of the fifth Robert [de Septvans], Joan, one of the co-heirs of
Rose, widow of Stephen de Penchester, married John de Cobham, circa 1258. Her
tomb is in the chancel of Cobham Church, with a brass inscription
Dame Joan de Cobham lies here
God be merciful to her soul and
to those whp pray for her soul..."
This fifth Robert de Septvans had a son (William) and there was further
descent, so I'm not sure how the above Rose fits in, and how Joan could be her
co-heir, perhaps this was her husband's family. It might be best if you obtained a
copy of this article, if you have difficulties finding it, let me know.
regards,
Adrian
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote;
There is quite a detailed account of the Septvans family in _Archaeologia
Cantiana, being transactions of the Kent Archaeological Society_ Vol XL (1928) pp
105-130.
p 109
"The sister of the fifth Robert [de Septvans], Joan, one of the co-heirs of
Rose, widow of Stephen de Penchester, married John de Cobham, circa 1258. Her
tomb is in the chancel of Cobham Church, with a brass inscription
Dame Joan de Cobham lies here
God be merciful to her soul and
to those whp pray for her soul..."
This fifth Robert de Septvans had a son (William) and there was further
descent, so I'm not sure how the above Rose fits in, and how Joan could be her
co-heir, perhaps this was her husband's family. It might be best if you obtained a
copy of this article, if you have difficulties finding it, let me know.
regards,
Adrian
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote;
In the Cobham article in Vol III, p. 343, it is said that Henry de
Cobham, 1st baron, was the son of John de C. and "Joan, da. and coh. of
Sir Robert de Septvans".
Ronny Bodine and Thomas Spalding in their "Ancestors of Dorothea
Poyntz", page 212, identify this Robert de Septvans as being of
Aldington, Kent, born c. 1250 and d. bef 20 Sep 1306.
The latter Robert de Septvans is almost certainly the Robert IV de
Septvans in Sanders' Baronies, page 1, who was a co-holder of the
Aldington feudal barony in Kent. But Sanders says that Robert IV had a
son William, d. 1322, who had a son William. Accordingly Joan who m.
Henry de Cobham could not have been an heir, or possibly only in her
issue and then only of her nephew William.
Has anyone got any better information?
The interest is that a Septvans of Aldington descent gives this Cobhan
branch a descent from a man in Domesday, one Helto.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Patricia Junkin
Re: CP and Joan de Septvans
Adrian,
May I ask how Reynold de Cobham of Sterborough, Lingfield, Surrey may be
related to this family? I am continuing my search for more proof that Oliver
la Zouche married 2nd ca. 1284, Joan de Cobham.
Perhaps this is of interest:
Penshurst: The greatest part of this parish is within the jurisdiction of
the honor of Otford, a subordinate limb to which the Manor of Penshuirss
Halmote, alias Otford Weald extends over Chiddingstone, Hever and
Cowden...was held for long time in the lease of the Archbshops of
Canterbury...p. 230 after Wm.the Conqueror. by deed at Registrum Rossense
Sir John Belemeyns canon of St. Paul London was in poss. of Penshurst as
uncle and trustee of Stephen de Penshurste in reign of Hen III..he died w/o
male issue and his wife Margery (2nd) held the manor at her death in 2 Ed II
and two daughters and co heirs Joan who m. Henry de Cobham of Runedale
second son of John de Cobham in Kent by his first wife daughter of Warren
Fitzbenedict; and Alice to John de Columbers ...Columbers family
relinquished claims to Sir John de Pultney whose widow Margaret m. Sir
Nicholas Louvain.
The History and Topographical Survey of the County of Kent. Edward Hasted.
2nd Ed. Canterbury. pr. W. Bristow. M DXCVII
Vol. III
Pat
----------
May I ask how Reynold de Cobham of Sterborough, Lingfield, Surrey may be
related to this family? I am continuing my search for more proof that Oliver
la Zouche married 2nd ca. 1284, Joan de Cobham.
Perhaps this is of interest:
Penshurst: The greatest part of this parish is within the jurisdiction of
the honor of Otford, a subordinate limb to which the Manor of Penshuirss
Halmote, alias Otford Weald extends over Chiddingstone, Hever and
Cowden...was held for long time in the lease of the Archbshops of
Canterbury...p. 230 after Wm.the Conqueror. by deed at Registrum Rossense
Sir John Belemeyns canon of St. Paul London was in poss. of Penshurst as
uncle and trustee of Stephen de Penshurste in reign of Hen III..he died w/o
male issue and his wife Margery (2nd) held the manor at her death in 2 Ed II
and two daughters and co heirs Joan who m. Henry de Cobham of Runedale
second son of John de Cobham in Kent by his first wife daughter of Warren
Fitzbenedict; and Alice to John de Columbers ...Columbers family
relinquished claims to Sir John de Pultney whose widow Margaret m. Sir
Nicholas Louvain.
The History and Topographical Survey of the County of Kent. Edward Hasted.
2nd Ed. Canterbury. pr. W. Bristow. M DXCVII
Vol. III
Pat
----------
From: ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: FW: CP and Joan de Septvans
Date: Tue, Nov 9, 2004, 11:06 AM
Doug,
Thanks for your message.
It would seem to me then, that where Kent Archaeological Society states that
Robert de Septvans' _sister_ was Joan, a coheir of Rose widow of Stephen de
Penesherst, their term _sister_ actually means wife's brother's wife.
BTW, Penshurst Place, Sussex was for a long time owned by the Sidney's (earls
of Leicester, then De L'Isle.) The house is open to the public and the guide
states that a Sir John de Pulteney, London mayor, bought the house from the
Penchester family in 1338.
kirkemo@comcast.net ("Gordon Kirkemo") wrote in message news:
JNEBIPBDPPDCGBKMKHOGCEKIEMAA.kirkemo@comcast.net>...
Tim, Adrian, and Others,
Adrian's posting suggests a relationship between Joan de Septvans and Rose
de Penchester. Robert Battle posted twice in 2002 that Rose, wife of
Stephen de Penchester, was the daughter of Godfrey de Baseville and his
wife
Hawise. Does anyone know how Rose (de Baseville) de Penchester is related
to Joan (de Septvans) de Cobham? Was Hawise, wife of Godfrey a Septvans?
Or was the wife of Robert IV related to Hawise?
Thanks,
Gordon Kirkemo
I believe it goes like this:
1. Sir John de1 COBHAM of Cobham, Sheriff of Kent, died Est 1270, son
of Henry de COBHAM and nn (---). He married (1) nn FITZBENEDICT; (2)
Joane de NEVILLE, daughter of Hugh I de NEVILLE of Hallingbury, Essex
and Joan de CORNHILL.
Notes for Sir John de COBHAM of Cobham, Sheriff of Kent
DEP, p 125.
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. I, pps 218-219.
Burke's Peerage (1934), Cobham.
Joan de Cobham possibly a daughter.
Children of Sir John de COBHAM of Cobham, Sheriff of Kent and nn
FITZBENEDICT were as follows:
+ 2 i Sir John de2 COBHAM.
+ 3 ii Sir Henry de2 COBHAM of Roundall and Alington, Kent.
Children of Sir John de COBHAM of Cobham, Sheriff of Kent and Joane
de NEVILLE were as follows:
4 i Sir Reginald de2 COBHAM of Okesden, constable of Dover Castle.
Notes: Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society,
(1929), Vol. I, p 218. Parl. Roll. Burke's Peerage (1934), Cobham.
+ 5 ii Joan de2 COBHAM.
Generation 2
2. Sir John de2 COBHAM (John de1), born Est 1240; died bef 30 Mar
1300. He married (1) Joan de SEPTVANS, born Est 1245, daughter of
Robert III de SEPTVANS and Isabel (---); (2) Methania (---).
Notes for Sir John de COBHAM
CP III: 338, 343-344.
AR 7: 246G.
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. I, pps 218-219.
Dering Roll.
Burke's Peerage (1934), Cobham.
Children of Sir John de COBHAM and Joan de SEPTVANS were as follows:
+ 6 i Sir Ralph de3 COBHAM 1st Lord Cobham.
+ 7 ii Sir Henry de3 COBHAM Lord Cobham of Kent.
+ 8 iii Sir John3 COBHAM of Blackborough.
9 iv James de3 COBHAM.
Children of Sir John de COBHAM and Methania (---) were as follows:
+ 10 i Sir Reginald de3 COBHAM.
3. Sir Henry de2 COBHAM of Roundall and Alington, Kent (John de1),
died aft 1 Nov 1314. He married (1) Margaret BAYNARD, died bef 13 aug
1295 (dsp), daughter of Robert BAYNARD; (2) Joan de PENESHERST, born
abt 1258; died bef 17 Nov 1324, daughter of Stephen de PENESHERST
(Pencestre) of Pehsurst and Tunstall, Kent and Rohese de BASEVILLE.
Notes for Sir Henry de COBHAM of Roundall and Alington, Kent
DEP, p 125.
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. I, pps 218-219.
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. IV, pps 32-35.
Charles, St George's, Dering Rolls.
Burke's Peerage (1934), Cobham.
Margaret Baynard had an heir Sir Thomas de Filiol, aged 26, (son of
Baldwin de Filiol), see Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The
Harleian Society, (1929), Vol. 2, p 26.
Children of Sir Henry de COBHAM of Roundall and Alington, Kent and
Joan de PENESHERST were as follows:
+ 11 i Sir Stephen de3 COBHAM Sheriff of Kent.
12 ii Sir Ralph de3 COBHAM. Notes: Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C
Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929), Vol. I, p 218.
Doug Smith
-
Chris Phillips
Re: CP and Joan de Septvans
Patricia Junkin wrote:
According to CP, Reynold de Cobham of Sterborough (d. 1361) was son of
another Reynold, of Orkesden and Eynesford, who was half-brother of John de
Cobham (d. 1300) who married Joan de Septvans and of Henry de Cobham of
Rundale (d. c. 1316) who married Joan de Penchester. It seems as though the
Kent Archaeological Society article has confused these two Joans. For good
measure, the third (half) brother also married a Joan, Joan d'Evere.
Chris Phillips
May I ask how Reynold de Cobham of Sterborough, Lingfield, Surrey may be
related to this family?
According to CP, Reynold de Cobham of Sterborough (d. 1361) was son of
another Reynold, of Orkesden and Eynesford, who was half-brother of John de
Cobham (d. 1300) who married Joan de Septvans and of Henry de Cobham of
Rundale (d. c. 1316) who married Joan de Penchester. It seems as though the
Kent Archaeological Society article has confused these two Joans. For good
measure, the third (half) brother also married a Joan, Joan d'Evere.
Chris Phillips
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: CP and Joan de Septvans
In message of 9 Nov, pajunkin@cox.net ("Patricia Junkin") wrote:
Try this, mostly from CP III, pp.343 and 353, the latter including Note
(b):
(1) Henry de COBHAM ( - ca1226)
(2) John de COBHAM* ( - ca1257)
& Maud FITZBENEDICT
(3) John de COBHAM (ca1229 - <1300)
& Joan de SEPTVANS
m. ca 1258
(4) Henry de COBHAM Lord Cobham of Kent (ca1260 - 1339)
& Maud de MOREVILLE
m. bef 1285
(2) John de COBHAM* ( - ca1257)
& Joan de NEVILL ( - >1275)
(3) Reynold de COBHAM
& Joan d' EVERS
(4) Reynold de COBHAM KG Lord Cobham or Sterborough (ca1295 - 1361)
& Joan de BERKELEY (ca1326 - 1369)
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
May I ask how Reynold de Cobham of Sterborough, Lingfield, Surrey may be
related to this family?
Try this, mostly from CP III, pp.343 and 353, the latter including Note
(b):
(1) Henry de COBHAM ( - ca1226)
(2) John de COBHAM* ( - ca1257)
& Maud FITZBENEDICT
(3) John de COBHAM (ca1229 - <1300)
& Joan de SEPTVANS
m. ca 1258
(4) Henry de COBHAM Lord Cobham of Kent (ca1260 - 1339)
& Maud de MOREVILLE
m. bef 1285
(2) John de COBHAM* ( - ca1257)
& Joan de NEVILL ( - >1275)
(3) Reynold de COBHAM
& Joan d' EVERS
(4) Reynold de COBHAM KG Lord Cobham or Sterborough (ca1295 - 1361)
& Joan de BERKELEY (ca1326 - 1369)
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Gordon Kirkemo
RE: CP and Joan de Septvans
Adrian, Doug, Patricia, Tim, Chris, et al.
Thanks for all the contributions to this thread. While the information has
been very helpful, I remain confused and uncertain regarding my original
question. How is Joan de Septvans an heir to Rose de Basville?
I wish I were more adept at putting family relations charts together. Since
I'm not, let me try to summarize the Cobham line from your postings as
follows:
1. Henry de Cobham= unknown
2(a). John de Cobham = Maud Fitzbenedict
3(a). John de Cobham=Joan Septvans, daughter of Robert and Isabel ___
Septvans
4. Ralph de Cobham=
4. Henry de Cobham=Maud de Moreville, daughter of Eudes.
4. John de Cobham=
4. James de Cobham=
3(b). John de Cobham=Methania ____
4. Reginald de Cobham
3. Henry de Cobham=Joan de Penesherst, daughter of (??)
4. Stephen de Cobham=
4. Ralph de Cobham=
2(b) John de Cobham=Joan de Neville, daughter of Hugh de Neville and Joan
de Cornhill
3. Reynold de Cobham=Joan d'Evers
4. Reynold de Cobham=Joan de Berkeley
3. Joan de Cobham=
I hope the listing above is comprehensible. Now I am concerned about #3
Henry de Cobham=Joan de Penesherst. Doug shows her to be the daughter of
Stephen de Penesherst and Rohese de Basville. But Patricia's post seems to
suggest that Joan is one of two daughters of Margery ____. Margery is
identified as a wife of Sir John Belemeyns. The sentence structure is hard
for me to translate, either Margery is the second wife of Sir John, or Sir
John is her second husband. I assume Sir John is her second husband, but
this leaves unanswered the question of who was her first husband, presumably
the father of Joan and Alice (wife of John de Columbers), heiresses to
Penesherst. Was their father Stephen de Penesherst, or did Stephen have a
son who married Margery? Or did Margery simply hold the wardship of the two
heiresses that was held by her husband?
Finally, if the above descent is correct, then Joan Penesherst (one of the
heiresses) married Henry de Cobham. Henry was a brother of John de Cobham,
husband of Joan de Septvans sister of Robert. Adrian's suggestion that
sister actually means "wife's brother's wife" might be correct, but the
solution seems quite convoluted. Why would the original source suggest a
Septvans/Basville connection at all? Do we agree that the Kent
Archeological Society is simply in error?
I hope this inquiry makes sense. Are there any comments regarding the
descendancy charted above?
Thanks,
Gordon
Thanks for all the contributions to this thread. While the information has
been very helpful, I remain confused and uncertain regarding my original
question. How is Joan de Septvans an heir to Rose de Basville?
I wish I were more adept at putting family relations charts together. Since
I'm not, let me try to summarize the Cobham line from your postings as
follows:
1. Henry de Cobham= unknown
2(a). John de Cobham = Maud Fitzbenedict
3(a). John de Cobham=Joan Septvans, daughter of Robert and Isabel ___
Septvans
4. Ralph de Cobham=
4. Henry de Cobham=Maud de Moreville, daughter of Eudes.
4. John de Cobham=
4. James de Cobham=
3(b). John de Cobham=Methania ____
4. Reginald de Cobham
3. Henry de Cobham=Joan de Penesherst, daughter of (??)
4. Stephen de Cobham=
4. Ralph de Cobham=
2(b) John de Cobham=Joan de Neville, daughter of Hugh de Neville and Joan
de Cornhill
3. Reynold de Cobham=Joan d'Evers
4. Reynold de Cobham=Joan de Berkeley
3. Joan de Cobham=
I hope the listing above is comprehensible. Now I am concerned about #3
Henry de Cobham=Joan de Penesherst. Doug shows her to be the daughter of
Stephen de Penesherst and Rohese de Basville. But Patricia's post seems to
suggest that Joan is one of two daughters of Margery ____. Margery is
identified as a wife of Sir John Belemeyns. The sentence structure is hard
for me to translate, either Margery is the second wife of Sir John, or Sir
John is her second husband. I assume Sir John is her second husband, but
this leaves unanswered the question of who was her first husband, presumably
the father of Joan and Alice (wife of John de Columbers), heiresses to
Penesherst. Was their father Stephen de Penesherst, or did Stephen have a
son who married Margery? Or did Margery simply hold the wardship of the two
heiresses that was held by her husband?
Finally, if the above descent is correct, then Joan Penesherst (one of the
heiresses) married Henry de Cobham. Henry was a brother of John de Cobham,
husband of Joan de Septvans sister of Robert. Adrian's suggestion that
sister actually means "wife's brother's wife" might be correct, but the
solution seems quite convoluted. Why would the original source suggest a
Septvans/Basville connection at all? Do we agree that the Kent
Archeological Society is simply in error?
I hope this inquiry makes sense. Are there any comments regarding the
descendancy charted above?
Thanks,
Gordon
-
Chris Phillips
Re: CP and Joan de Septvans
Gordon Kirkemo wrote:
It looks to me as though the statement quoted by Adrian from the Kent
Archaeological Society transactions, viz.
<<
p 109
"The sister of the fifth Robert [de Septvans], Joan, one of the co-heirs of
Rose, widow of Stephen de Penchester, married John de Cobham, circa 1258.
Her
tomb is in the chancel of Cobham Church, with a brass inscription
Dame Joan de Cobham lies here
God be merciful to her soul and
to those whp pray for her soul..."
is probably the result of confusion between two contemporary Dame Joan de
Cobhams, the wives of two brothers.
(1) Joan, daughter of Robert de Septvans, wife of John de Cobham of Cobham
and Cowling, Kent (d. 1300) [CP iii 343]. (But from what's been posted here,
it seems that Joan was not the coheir of Robert de Septvans.)
(2) Joan (d. 1314/5), daughter and coheir of Stephen Penchester, wife of
Henry de Cobham of Rundale, Kent (d. c. 1316) [CP iii 351, 352].
Chris Phillips
Thanks for all the contributions to this thread. While the information
has
been very helpful, I remain confused and uncertain regarding my original
question. How is Joan de Septvans an heir to Rose de Basville?
It looks to me as though the statement quoted by Adrian from the Kent
Archaeological Society transactions, viz.
<<
p 109
"The sister of the fifth Robert [de Septvans], Joan, one of the co-heirs of
Rose, widow of Stephen de Penchester, married John de Cobham, circa 1258.
Her
tomb is in the chancel of Cobham Church, with a brass inscription
Dame Joan de Cobham lies here
God be merciful to her soul and
to those whp pray for her soul..."
is probably the result of confusion between two contemporary Dame Joan de
Cobhams, the wives of two brothers.
(1) Joan, daughter of Robert de Septvans, wife of John de Cobham of Cobham
and Cowling, Kent (d. 1300) [CP iii 343]. (But from what's been posted here,
it seems that Joan was not the coheir of Robert de Septvans.)
(2) Joan (d. 1314/5), daughter and coheir of Stephen Penchester, wife of
Henry de Cobham of Rundale, Kent (d. c. 1316) [CP iii 351, 352].
Chris Phillips
-
Chris Phillips
Re: CP and Joan de Septvans
Patricia Junkin wrote:
Gordon Kirkemo wrote:
Now I am concerned about #3
I read it that Sir John Belemeyns was the uncle of Stephen de Penshurste,
that Margery was Stephen's 2nd wife and widow, and that Joan and Alice were
the daughters and coheirs of Stephen. (From the information posted here,
Joan would have been Stephen's daughter by his first wife Rohese.)
Chris Phillips
Sir John Belemeyns canon of St. Paul London was in poss. of Penshurst as
uncle and trustee of Stephen de Penshurste in reign of Hen III..he died
w/o
male issue and his wife Margery (2nd) held the manor at her death in 2 Ed
II
and two daughters and co heirs Joan who m. Henry de Cobham of Runedale
second son of John de Cobham in Kent by his first wife daughter of Warren
Fitzbenedict; and Alice to John de Columbers ...
Gordon Kirkemo wrote:
Now I am concerned about #3
Henry de Cobham=Joan de Penesherst. Doug shows her to be the daughter of
Stephen de Penesherst and Rohese de Basville. But Patricia's post seems
to
suggest that Joan is one of two daughters of Margery ____. Margery is
identified as a wife of Sir John Belemeyns. The sentence structure is
hard
for me to translate, either Margery is the second wife of Sir John, or Sir
John is her second husband. I assume Sir John is her second husband, but
this leaves unanswered the question of who was her first husband,
presumably
the father of Joan and Alice (wife of John de Columbers), heiresses to
Penesherst. Was their father Stephen de Penesherst, or did Stephen have a
son who married Margery? Or did Margery simply hold the wardship of the
two
heiresses that was held by her husband?
I read it that Sir John Belemeyns was the uncle of Stephen de Penshurste,
that Margery was Stephen's 2nd wife and widow, and that Joan and Alice were
the daughters and coheirs of Stephen. (From the information posted here,
Joan would have been Stephen's daughter by his first wife Rohese.)
Chris Phillips
-
Doug Smith
Re: CP and Joan de Septvans
kirkemo@comcast.net ("Gordon Kirkemo") wrote in message news:<JNEBIPBDPPDCGBKMKHOGGELJEMAA.kirkemo@comcast.net>...
I think Patricia and my material match. Depends on how you read the
"he" Stephen was the one who was dead, had children etc. John Belmyns
was uncle and trustee.
Doug
Adrian, Doug, Patricia, Tim, Chris, et al.
Thanks for all the contributions to this thread. While the information has
been very helpful, I remain confused and uncertain regarding my original
question. How is Joan de Septvans an heir to Rose de Basville?
I wish I were more adept at putting family relations charts together. Since
I'm not, let me try to summarize the Cobham line from your postings as
follows:
1. Henry de Cobham= unknown
2(a). John de Cobham = Maud Fitzbenedict
3(a). John de Cobham=Joan Septvans, daughter of Robert and Isabel ___
Septvans
4. Ralph de Cobham=
4. Henry de Cobham=Maud de Moreville, daughter of Eudes.
4. John de Cobham=
4. James de Cobham=
3(b). John de Cobham=Methania ____
4. Reginald de Cobham
3. Henry de Cobham=Joan de Penesherst, daughter of (??)
4. Stephen de Cobham=
4. Ralph de Cobham=
2(b) John de Cobham=Joan de Neville, daughter of Hugh de Neville and Joan
de Cornhill
3. Reynold de Cobham=Joan d'Evers
4. Reynold de Cobham=Joan de Berkeley
3. Joan de Cobham=
I hope the listing above is comprehensible. Now I am concerned about #3
Henry de Cobham=Joan de Penesherst. Doug shows her to be the daughter of
Stephen de Penesherst and Rohese de Basville. But Patricia's post seems to
suggest that Joan is one of two daughters of Margery ____. Margery is
identified as a wife of Sir John Belemeyns. The sentence structure is hard
for me to translate, either Margery is the second wife of Sir John, or Sir
John is her second husband. I assume Sir John is her second husband, but
this leaves unanswered the question of who was her first husband, presumably
the father of Joan and Alice (wife of John de Columbers), heiresses to
Penesherst. Was their father Stephen de Penesherst, or did Stephen have a
son who married Margery? Or did Margery simply hold the wardship of the two
heiresses that was held by her husband?
Finally, if the above descent is correct, then Joan Penesherst (one of the
heiresses) married Henry de Cobham. Henry was a brother of John de Cobham,
husband of Joan de Septvans sister of Robert. Adrian's suggestion that
sister actually means "wife's brother's wife" might be correct, but the
solution seems quite convoluted. Why would the original source suggest a
Septvans/Basville connection at all? Do we agree that the Kent
Archeological Society is simply in error?
I hope this inquiry makes sense. Are there any comments regarding the
descendancy charted above?
Thanks,
Gordon
I think Patricia and my material match. Depends on how you read the
"he" Stephen was the one who was dead, had children etc. John Belmyns
was uncle and trustee.
Doug
-
Chris Phillips
Re: CP and Joan de Septvans
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
<<
In the Cobham article in Vol III, p. 343, it is said that Henry de
Cobham, 1st baron, was the son of John de C. and "Joan, da. and coh. of
Sir Robert de Septvans".
Ronny Bodine and Thomas Spalding in their "Ancestors of Dorothea
Poyntz", page 212, identify this Robert de Septvans as being of
Aldington, Kent, born c. 1250 and d. bef 20 Sep 1306.
The latter Robert de Septvans is almost certainly the Robert IV de
Septvans in Sanders' Baronies, page 1, who was a co-holder of the
Aldington feudal barony in Kent. But Sanders says that Robert IV had a
son William, d. 1322, who had a son William. Accordingly Joan who m.
Henry de Cobham could not have been an heir, or possibly only in her
issue and then only of her nephew William.
Adrian Channing replied:
<<
There is quite a detailed account of the Septvans family in _Archaeologia
Cantiana, being transactions of the Kent Archaeological Society_ Vol XL
(1928) pp
105-130.
p 109
"The sister of the fifth Robert [de Septvans], Joan, one of the co-heirs of
Rose, widow of Stephen de Penchester, married John de Cobham, circa 1258.
Her
tomb is in the chancel of Cobham Church, with a brass inscription
Dame Joan de Cobham lies here
God be merciful to her soul and
to those whp pray for her soul..."
Just to note that the information in Arch. Cant. vol. 40 appears to come
from an earlier article - which it refers to in its discussion of Joan -
entitled "The Lords of Cobham, their Monuments, and the Church", by J. G.
Waller (Arch. Cant. vol. 11, pp. 49-112). Waller says (p. 56) that John de
Cobham (d. 1300) was married firstly, c. 1258, to "Joan, daughter of Sir
Robert de Septvans and one of the coheirs of Rose, widow of Stephen de
Penchester, who died before 1298".
The inquisition post mortem of Margaret, the widow of Stephen de Penecestre
alias de Penesherst, dated 2 Edward II, [Cal IPM vol. 5, no 134 (p. 60)]
identifies the heirs of Stephen as Joan, the wife of Henry Cobbeham of
Rundale, aged 40 and more, and Alice, late the wife of John de Columbariis,
aged 30 and more.
This is consistent with CP's identification of Joan, the wife of Henry de
Cobham of Rundale as Joan, one of the two daughters and coheirs of Stephen
Penchester. It does seem that Waller was confusing this Joan Penchester,
wife of Henry de Cobham of Rundale, with Joan de Septvans, wife of John de
Cobham (and he also seems to have been wrong in describing Rose as Stephen's
widow, as he was survived by a widow Margaret).
As for the father of Joan de Septvans, chronologically it looks as though
she would have been a daughter of the Robert who is described as 40 in 1249,
and who d. 1253 (the father of the Robert identified by Bodine and
Spalding). On this basis CP's description of her as Robert's coheir is an
error (maybe it has been carelessly carried over from Waller's mistaken
description of her as the coheir of Rose?).
Having said that, it would be nice to have some contemporary evidence of the
parentage of Joan, wife of John. I didn't see any in either article. Waller
discusses her surviving brass, which originally bore 4 coats of arms, but
says that the two surviving ones represent Cobham.
Chris Phillips
<<
In the Cobham article in Vol III, p. 343, it is said that Henry de
Cobham, 1st baron, was the son of John de C. and "Joan, da. and coh. of
Sir Robert de Septvans".
Ronny Bodine and Thomas Spalding in their "Ancestors of Dorothea
Poyntz", page 212, identify this Robert de Septvans as being of
Aldington, Kent, born c. 1250 and d. bef 20 Sep 1306.
The latter Robert de Septvans is almost certainly the Robert IV de
Septvans in Sanders' Baronies, page 1, who was a co-holder of the
Aldington feudal barony in Kent. But Sanders says that Robert IV had a
son William, d. 1322, who had a son William. Accordingly Joan who m.
Henry de Cobham could not have been an heir, or possibly only in her
issue and then only of her nephew William.
Adrian Channing replied:
<<
There is quite a detailed account of the Septvans family in _Archaeologia
Cantiana, being transactions of the Kent Archaeological Society_ Vol XL
(1928) pp
105-130.
p 109
"The sister of the fifth Robert [de Septvans], Joan, one of the co-heirs of
Rose, widow of Stephen de Penchester, married John de Cobham, circa 1258.
Her
tomb is in the chancel of Cobham Church, with a brass inscription
Dame Joan de Cobham lies here
God be merciful to her soul and
to those whp pray for her soul..."
Just to note that the information in Arch. Cant. vol. 40 appears to come
from an earlier article - which it refers to in its discussion of Joan -
entitled "The Lords of Cobham, their Monuments, and the Church", by J. G.
Waller (Arch. Cant. vol. 11, pp. 49-112). Waller says (p. 56) that John de
Cobham (d. 1300) was married firstly, c. 1258, to "Joan, daughter of Sir
Robert de Septvans and one of the coheirs of Rose, widow of Stephen de
Penchester, who died before 1298".
The inquisition post mortem of Margaret, the widow of Stephen de Penecestre
alias de Penesherst, dated 2 Edward II, [Cal IPM vol. 5, no 134 (p. 60)]
identifies the heirs of Stephen as Joan, the wife of Henry Cobbeham of
Rundale, aged 40 and more, and Alice, late the wife of John de Columbariis,
aged 30 and more.
This is consistent with CP's identification of Joan, the wife of Henry de
Cobham of Rundale as Joan, one of the two daughters and coheirs of Stephen
Penchester. It does seem that Waller was confusing this Joan Penchester,
wife of Henry de Cobham of Rundale, with Joan de Septvans, wife of John de
Cobham (and he also seems to have been wrong in describing Rose as Stephen's
widow, as he was survived by a widow Margaret).
As for the father of Joan de Septvans, chronologically it looks as though
she would have been a daughter of the Robert who is described as 40 in 1249,
and who d. 1253 (the father of the Robert identified by Bodine and
Spalding). On this basis CP's description of her as Robert's coheir is an
error (maybe it has been carelessly carried over from Waller's mistaken
description of her as the coheir of Rose?).
Having said that, it would be nice to have some contemporary evidence of the
parentage of Joan, wife of John. I didn't see any in either article. Waller
discusses her surviving brass, which originally bore 4 coats of arms, but
says that the two surviving ones represent Cobham.
Chris Phillips