Errata

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Clagett, Brice

Errata

Legg inn av Clagett, Brice » 05 nov 2004 03:31:02

Before some one else points it out, I note that in my prior post on this

subject (appropriately named), in the last sentence, "typhographical"
is a typographical error for "typographical."

Gjest

Re: Errata

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 nov 2004 01:31:01

Dear Brice,
Your most recent errata post #3 is in error as Ralph de
Stafford, 1st Earl Stafford`s first wife was Margaret de Audley, daughter of
Hugh de Audley, Earl of Gloucester by his wife Margaret de Clare, one of the
three daughters of Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Clare, Hertford, and Gloucester by
his 2nd wife Joan d`Acre, daughter of King Edward I of England.
see among others AR 7 line 9 Generations 29-31; also RPA Stafford pp
671-72.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Patricia Junkin

Re: Errata

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 09 nov 2004 15:01:01

Could you share the name of the child Eleanor de Clare had by William la
Zouche de Mortimer [s/o Robert and Joyce la Zouche de Mortimer]? I believe
they had no child. William had at least three children by Alice de Toeni,
Robert, Ralph and Alan.
Were the Joan and Mary de Mortimer the daughters of Robert and Joyce, then,
as I am to understand your post?
Thank you.
Pat

----------
From: Nichol_storm@yahoo.com (.:Nichol:.)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Errata
Date: Mon, Nov 8, 2004, 11:04 PM


bclagett@cov.com ("Clagett, Brice") wrote in message
news:<B1F75BF666FCFD4F9B3EA0D0A58482BDDAAF1B@cbiexm01dc.cov.com>...
Here are a few more corrections to ODNB:
3. "Ralph Stafford, first earl of Stafford": his wife is called "one of
the three daughters and coheirs of Gilbert de Clare, earl of Gloucester
and Hertford (d. 1314)." "Daughters" should read "sisters".

Unless I am greatly mistaken, his wife was neither daughter nor sister
to Gilbert de Clare. Gilbert de Clare had three full-sisters, Eleanor,
Margaret, and Elizabeth, and two sisters of the half-blood, Mary and
Joan Monthermer. Of these...

Eleanor de Clare married firstly Hugh le Despenser, by whom she had a
large brood of children. After he was executed, she was abducted by
and married to William de la Zouche, by whom she had a son.

Margaret de Clare married firstly Piers Gaveston, favorite of King
Edward II, by whom she had a daughter, Joan, who died young. She
married secondly to Hugh D'Audley, by whom she had a daughter,
Margaret d'Audley, who was kidnapped and wed by Ralph Stafford.

Elizabeth de Clare married John de Burgh, heir to an Irish earl, and
had a son. After his death she was abducted/eloped with Theobald de
Verdun, by whom she had a posthumous daughter. Her third and final
marriage was to Ralph d'Amory, another of Edward II's favorites.

Mary Monthermer married Duncan, Earl of Fife, and had a daughter,
Isabel.

Joan Monthermer became a nun.

Shouldn't the statement read "niece of Gilbert de Clare, earl of
Gloucester and Hertford (d.1314)"?

.:Nichol:.

Re: Errata

Legg inn av .:Nichol:. » 09 nov 2004 21:55:46

pajunkin@cox.net ("Patricia Junkin") wrote in message news:<20041109135107.JJVR29395.lakermmtao08.cox.net@[68.230.205.79]>...
Could you share the name of the child Eleanor de Clare had by William la
Zouche de Mortimer [s/o Robert and Joyce la Zouche de Mortimer]? I believe
they had no child. William had at least three children by Alice de Toeni,
Robert, Ralph and Alan.
Were the Joan and Mary de Mortimer the daughters of Robert and Joyce, then,
as I am to understand your post?
Thank you.
Pat

Eleanor de Clare was abducted in January 1329 by William de la Zouche
while on her way to marry John Grey, 1st Lord Grey. Her intended groom
was understandably infuriated by this, and Grey and Zouche quarreled
afterwards for many years. Eleanor and William had at least one son
together, also named William, who was born circa 1330. This William
Junior became a monk at Glastonbury. Curiously, in Dugdale's
Monasticon there's a reference to Eleanor and William having a son
named Hugh, but this may just be a typographical error.

Joan and Mary Monthermer were daughters of Princess Joan d'Acre by her
second husband, Ralph Monthermer. The MONTHERMER family and the
MORTIMER family are two separate families. Ralph Monthermer was a
knight in Joan's household who clandestinely married her. They had
four children (2 sons, 2 daughters). Thusly, Joan and Mary Monthermer
were half-sisters of Eleanor de Clare, above, sharing a common mother.

The Mortimers, from whence sprang Roger Mortimer of Queen Isabella
fame, were barons on the Welsh Marches. They were unrelated to the
Monthermers in any notable way, aside from the tangling interlocking
web of marriages uniting all the English noble families of that time
period.

Patricia Junkin

Re: Errata

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 09 nov 2004 23:21:01

Thank you for the clarification and, if I may further enquire. William and
Eleanor's son, William b. ca. 1330, a monk then by 1350, perhaps. I realize
there has been debate as to whether Eleanor had a child by William, but have
not found sufficient proof. Is he named in a charter to Glastonbury? I do
have a reference to a William Zouche younger and elder, however, they are in
a different line.
It is possible that Hugh was a brother of William and certainly he had a
grandson Hugh, however, this last Hugh was not born until approximately the
time William died.
Pat


----------
From: Nichol_storm@yahoo.com (.:Nichol:.)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Errata
Date: Tue, Nov 9, 2004, 3:55 PM


pajunkin@cox.net ("Patricia Junkin") wrote in message
news:<20041109135107.JJVR29395.lakermmtao08.cox.net@[68.230.205.79]>...
Could you share the name of the child Eleanor de Clare had by William la
Zouche de Mortimer [s/o Robert and Joyce la Zouche de Mortimer]? I believe
they had no child. William had at least three children by Alice de Toeni,
Robert, Ralph and Alan.
Were the Joan and Mary de Mortimer the daughters of Robert and Joyce, then,
as I am to understand your post?
Thank you.
Pat

Eleanor de Clare was abducted in January 1329 by William de la Zouche
while on her way to marry John Grey, 1st Lord Grey. Her intended groom
was understandably infuriated by this, and Grey and Zouche quarreled
afterwards for many years. Eleanor and William had at least one son
together, also named William, who was born circa 1330. This William
Junior became a monk at Glastonbury. Curiously, in Dugdale's
Monasticon there's a reference to Eleanor and William having a son
named Hugh, but this may just be a typographical error.

Joan and Mary Monthermer were daughters of Princess Joan d'Acre by her
second husband, Ralph Monthermer. The MONTHERMER family and the
MORTIMER family are two separate families. Ralph Monthermer was a
knight in Joan's household who clandestinely married her. They had
four children (2 sons, 2 daughters). Thusly, Joan and Mary Monthermer
were half-sisters of Eleanor de Clare, above, sharing a common mother.

The Mortimers, from whence sprang Roger Mortimer of Queen Isabella
fame, were barons on the Welsh Marches. They were unrelated to the
Monthermers in any notable way, aside from the tangling interlocking
web of marriages uniting all the English noble families of that time
period.

Gordon Kirkemo

RE: Errata

Legg inn av Gordon Kirkemo » 09 nov 2004 23:41:02

This has been very helpful, but it raises a question for me. Do you know
anything of the ancestry of Ralph Monthermer? I've not had much success in
pursuing his line. Is anything further known about him?

Thanks,
Gordon Kirkemo

-----Original Message-----
From: .:Nichol:. [mailto:Nichol_storm@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 12:56 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Errata

pajunkin@cox.net ("Patricia Junkin") wrote in message
news:<20041109135107.JJVR29395.lakermmtao08.cox.net@[68.230.205.79]>...
Could you share the name of the child Eleanor de Clare had by William la
Zouche de Mortimer [s/o Robert and Joyce la Zouche de Mortimer]? I believe
they had no child. William had at least three children by Alice de Toeni,
Robert, Ralph and Alan.
Were the Joan and Mary de Mortimer the daughters of Robert and Joyce,
then,
as I am to understand your post?
Thank you.
Pat

Eleanor de Clare was abducted in January 1329 by William de la Zouche
while on her way to marry John Grey, 1st Lord Grey. Her intended groom
was understandably infuriated by this, and Grey and Zouche quarreled
afterwards for many years. Eleanor and William had at least one son
together, also named William, who was born circa 1330. This William
Junior became a monk at Glastonbury. Curiously, in Dugdale's
Monasticon there's a reference to Eleanor and William having a son
named Hugh, but this may just be a typographical error.

Joan and Mary Monthermer were daughters of Princess Joan d'Acre by her
second husband, Ralph Monthermer. The MONTHERMER family and the
MORTIMER family are two separate families. Ralph Monthermer was a
knight in Joan's household who clandestinely married her. They had
four children (2 sons, 2 daughters). Thusly, Joan and Mary Monthermer
were half-sisters of Eleanor de Clare, above, sharing a common mother.

The Mortimers, from whence sprang Roger Mortimer of Queen Isabella
fame, were barons on the Welsh Marches. They were unrelated to the
Monthermers in any notable way, aside from the tangling interlocking
web of marriages uniting all the English noble families of that time
period.

Gjest

Re: Errata

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 nov 2004 00:21:01

Dear Newsgroup,
Nichol brought up the subject of Joan d`Acre`s
Monthermer issue, so in interest of equal time, I`d like to mention(see RPA p
505) the issue of Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester, etc. by his first
wife Alice,(married 1253) daughter of Hugues XI, Sire de Lusignan by his wife
Yolande, daughter of Pierre de Dreux, Duke of Brittany by Alix de Thouars,
heiress of Brittany., He divorced her in 1271. They had two daughters,Isabel de
Clare married 1st (as 1st wife) 1297 Guy de Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick, who
divorced her bet 1302 and 1314, When She married Maurice , 2nd Lord Berkeley who
married 1st Eva la Zouche (see RPA 713 and 97) Isabel (de Clare) ( de
Beauchamp) de Berkeley died without issue in 1333 and Joan de Clare who married 1st
Duncan III, Earl of Fife and had a child or chidren, Duncan IV, the husband of
Mary Monthermer, daughter of Ralph Montermer and Joan d`Acre.(see RPA p 507)
Alice (de Lusignan) de Clare was a 1st cousin to King Edward I of England; Joan
(de Clare) MacDuff was 2nd cousin and stepdaughter to Joan d`Acre and Duncan
IV MacDuff, Earl of Fife was thus 3rd cousin to his wife Mary de Monthermer
After Duncan III, Rarl of Fife died in 1289 ( see Robert the Bruce, King of
Scots by Ronald McNair Scott p 248 (in the index for the death dates and numbering
of these Duncans.) Joan (de Clare) (MacDuff) married 2nd Sir Gervase Avenel,
Knt. (see RPA p 505)
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Brad Verity

Re: Errata

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 10 nov 2004 05:22:49

pajunkin@cox.net ("Patricia Junkin") wrote in message news:

Thank you for the clarification and, if I may further enquire. William and
Eleanor's son, William b. ca. 1330, a monk then by 1350, perhaps. I realize
there has been debate as to whether Eleanor had a child by William, but have
not found sufficient proof. Is he named in a charter to Glastonbury? I do
have a reference to a William Zouche younger and elder, however, they are in
a different line.

Dear Pat,

From Frances Underhill, _For Her Good Estate: The Life of Elizabeth de
Burgh, Lady of Clare_. (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1999), p. 87:
"Meanwhile, Eleanor and William la Zouche began a family. One son
survived, choosing to become a monk at Glastonbury since he had few
prospects for secular fortune. William's motives for joining the
monastery perhaps lacked a strong religious impulse, as Glastonbury
was more noted for its comfortable style than its zeal or piety in the
late Middle Ages. Elizabeth's accounts confirm that William's
thoughts ranged beyond the monastery, for in 1355-56 he leased her
estate at Bletchingdon."

Elizabeth, Lady of Clare, seems to have taken this nephew under her
wing, as he was orphaned before the age of ten. The abbot of
Glastonbury had professional and personal interactions with Lady
Elizabeth, so perhaps she helped secure for her nephew a position at
that monastery.

William la Zouche the monk lived until at least the reign of Richard
II.

From Patent Rolls: "11 Feb. 1381, Westminster. Inspeximus and
confirmation, in favour of the abbot of Glastonbury, of letters patent
dated 6 February, 35 Edward III., granting to him 10 marks yearly from
the issues of the county of Somerset during the life of William la
Zouche, his fellow monk. By p.s."

It is possible that Hugh was a brother of William and certainly he had a
grandson Hugh, however, this last Hugh was not born until approximately the
time William died.

I think its Dugdale's Monasticon that is the source for there being a
son of Eleanor de Clare named Hugh la Zouche. I haven't seen the
original citation. Its possible there was a son by that name who died
young, or perhaps the Monasticon confused the first name of Eleanor's
Zouche son. For Eleanor de Clare did have a son named Hugh - Hugh le
Despenser - who succeeded as her heir to the lordship of Glamorgan and
the rest of her third of the Clare inheritance.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, -----Brad

.:Nichol:.

Re: Errata

Legg inn av .:Nichol:. » 10 nov 2004 23:06:13

kirkemo@comcast.net ("Gordon Kirkemo") wrote in message news:<JNEBIPBDPPDCGBKMKHOGEELIEMAA.kirkemo@comcast.net>...
This has been very helpful, but it raises a question for me. Do you know
anything of the ancestry of Ralph Monthermer? I've not had much success in
pursuing his line. Is anything further known about him?

Thanks,
Gordon Kirkemo

As far as I am aware, nothing is known of Ralph Monthermer's ancestry.
He seems to have been a pretty obscure individual. He was attached to
the household of Joan d'Acre before suddenly and secretly marrying her
in 1297, much to the ire of her father King Edward I (who threw his
coronet into the fire upon learning of his daughter's humiliatingly
lowly marriage). Ralph was styled Earl of Gloucester & Hertford in
right of his wife, but when she died in 1307 he was downgraded to the
rank of baron. He would later remarry to another highborn lady, Isabel
le Despenser, the widow of Gilbert de Clare of Thomond and John
Hastings, respectively.

Patricia Junkin

Re: Errata

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 11 nov 2004 00:21:02

Dear Brad,
I so very much appreciate this information. Is it possible that this William
could have sired offspring?
Pat

----------
From: batruth@hotmail.com (Brad Verity)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Errata
Date: Tue, Nov 9, 2004, 11:22 PM


pajunkin@cox.net ("Patricia Junkin") wrote in message news:

Thank you for the clarification and, if I may further enquire. William and
Eleanor's son, William b. ca. 1330, a monk then by 1350, perhaps. I realize
there has been debate as to whether Eleanor had a child by William, but have
not found sufficient proof. Is he named in a charter to Glastonbury? I do
have a reference to a William Zouche younger and elder, however, they are in
a different line.

Dear Pat,

From Frances Underhill, _For Her Good Estate: The Life of Elizabeth de
Burgh, Lady of Clare_. (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1999), p. 87:
"Meanwhile, Eleanor and William la Zouche began a family. One son
survived, choosing to become a monk at Glastonbury since he had few
prospects for secular fortune. William's motives for joining the
monastery perhaps lacked a strong religious impulse, as Glastonbury
was more noted for its comfortable style than its zeal or piety in the
late Middle Ages. Elizabeth's accounts confirm that William's
thoughts ranged beyond the monastery, for in 1355-56 he leased her
estate at Bletchingdon."

Elizabeth, Lady of Clare, seems to have taken this nephew under her
wing, as he was orphaned before the age of ten. The abbot of
Glastonbury had professional and personal interactions with Lady
Elizabeth, so perhaps she helped secure for her nephew a position at
that monastery.

William la Zouche the monk lived until at least the reign of Richard
II.

From Patent Rolls: "11 Feb. 1381, Westminster. Inspeximus and
confirmation, in favour of the abbot of Glastonbury, of letters patent
dated 6 February, 35 Edward III., granting to him 10 marks yearly from
the issues of the county of Somerset during the life of William la
Zouche, his fellow monk. By p.s."

It is possible that Hugh was a brother of William and certainly he had a
grandson Hugh, however, this last Hugh was not born until approximately the
time William died.

I think its Dugdale's Monasticon that is the source for there being a
son of Eleanor de Clare named Hugh la Zouche. I haven't seen the
original citation. Its possible there was a son by that name who died
young, or perhaps the Monasticon confused the first name of Eleanor's
Zouche son. For Eleanor de Clare did have a son named Hugh - Hugh le
Despenser - who succeeded as her heir to the lordship of Glamorgan and
the rest of her third of the Clare inheritance.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, -----Brad

Brad Verity

Re: Errata

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 11 nov 2004 04:38:36

pajunkin@cox.net ("Patricia Junkin") wrote in message news:

I so very much appreciate this information. Is it possible that this William
could have sired offspring?

Well, its always possible, but the likelihood of any legitimate
offspring is practically nil.

William la Zouche was born about 1330, and the 1381 Patent Roll entry
from tells us he was a monk by 35 Edward III (1361), when he was aged
about 30. If he had been married, widowed, and a father before 1361,
his child(ren) would still be in minority when he entered the
religious life. He would have had a moral obligation to see to their
provision, and there would likely be evidence of such (manors
assigned, marriage arranged, etc). One would expect legitimate (and
even illegitimate) offspring to have had contact with the Zouches and
Despensers, and there does not seem to be any evidence of an offshoot
branch of those families.

Any children from William after 1361 would of course be illegitimate.

His aunt the Lady of Clare leasing to William her manor of
Bletchingdon in 1355-56, when he was age 25/26, does suggest he was
flirting with the idea of a secular life. But the military &
political career that would necessarily go along with landholding
responsibilities for a kinsman of powerful baronial families must have
proved unappealing to William. He, after all, would have had the
connections to pursue a powerful clerical position, if he so desired
(his nephew Henry le Despenser became bishop of Norwich). That he
chose (presuming he had a choice in the matter) the life of a monk
over that of a priest suggests that desire for seclusion and to be
removed from politics was a motivating factor.

Cheers, ------Brad

Patricia Junkin

Re: Errata

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 13 nov 2004 16:21:01

Brad,

Thank you very much for this further elaboration. May I recap for general
agreement.

Gen. 1 William la Zouche b. bef. 1238, d. ca. 1272 married Maud de Hobridge
daughter and co-heiress of William de Hobridge of Howbridge in Witham,
Essex. This Maud had married John de Traili by whom she had a son John.
William and Maud had :

Gen. 2 Joyce la Zouche who married Nicholas de Whelton and Robert de
Mortymer. d. 1287. By Mortimer, Joyce had:

Gen 3. William la Zouche Mortimer d. 1337 m. Alice de Toeni d. 1324 (m. Guy
Beauchamp and Thomas Laybourne) by whom he had: Alan[his heir at IPM],
Robert and Ralph.
Gen 3. William abducted and m. 2) Eleanor de Clare b. 1292[m. 1st Hugh
Despencer, younger] by whom he had William la Zouche, the monk who leased
Roger d'Amorie 's Bletchingdon, Oxon of his aunt, Elizabeth de Clare
[Burgh-Vernon-d'Amorie]. The d'Amorie connection was retained in the line by
William and Alice de Toeni's son Alan who d. 1347 "Writ of scire facias to
sheriff at Cambridge..by reason of minority of Hugh, son of Alan. As
Nicholas Dammory and Eleanor his wife now hold the said rent in Fulborn."
Some lands and property in the line of Alan la Zouche and Eleanor de Quincy
passed to the Zouche Mortimers on the death of Alan who married Eleanor
Seagrave and this line then is known as Zouche of Asheby [1338 Willliam la
Zousche, de Mortuo Mari..Sussex. Treve and Nuttebourn. Leic. Assheby la
Zousche].

Can we assume that there may have been other children of Elizabeth de Calre
and William la Zouche Mortimer?

Pat

----------
From: batruth@hotmail.com (Brad Verity)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Errata
Date: Wed, Nov 10, 2004, 10:38 PM


pajunkin@cox.net ("Patricia Junkin") wrote in message news:

I so very much appreciate this information. Is it possible that this William
could have sired offspring?

Well, its always possible, but the likelihood of any legitimate
offspring is practically nil.

William la Zouche was born about 1330, and the 1381 Patent Roll entry
from tells us he was a monk by 35 Edward III (1361), when he was aged
about 30. If he had been married, widowed, and a father before 1361,
his child(ren) would still be in minority when he entered the
religious life. He would have had a moral obligation to see to their
provision, and there would likely be evidence of such (manors
assigned, marriage arranged, etc). One would expect legitimate (and
even illegitimate) offspring to have had contact with the Zouches and
Despensers, and there does not seem to be any evidence of an offshoot
branch of those families.

Any children from William after 1361 would of course be illegitimate.

His aunt the Lady of Clare leasing to William her manor of
Bletchingdon in 1355-56, when he was age 25/26, does suggest he was
flirting with the idea of a secular life. But the military &
political career that would necessarily go along with landholding
responsibilities for a kinsman of powerful baronial families must have
proved unappealing to William. He, after all, would have had the
connections to pursue a powerful clerical position, if he so desired
(his nephew Henry le Despenser became bishop of Norwich). That he
chose (presuming he had a choice in the matter) the life of a monk
over that of a priest suggests that desire for seclusion and to be
removed from politics was a motivating factor.

Cheers, ------Brad

Gjest

Re:Errata

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 nov 2004 18:51:01

Dear Brad, Pat, et als,
According to RPA p 137 and pp 713-715, MC 4
line 101A and AR 7 line 216 William de la Zouche Mortimer, Baron of Richard`s
Castle also had by Alice Tony a daughter Joyce la Zouche Mortimer who
married John Botetourt, 2nd Lord Botetourt of Weoley. They had a son and six
daughters.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Brad Verity

Re: Errata

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 15 nov 2004 03:25:43

pajunkin@cox.net ("Patricia Junkin") wrote in message news:

Thank you very much for this further elaboration. May I recap for general
agreement.
[snip]


Pat, I don't know about the other generations of Zouches, but the
summary info on William la Zouche, Eleanor de Clare, and their son the
monk all looks accurate.

Rosie Bevan pointed out evidence that Alice, the wife of John de
Multon, baron of Egremont (d. 1334), was a daughter of William la
Zouche of Mortimer by his first wife Alice, countess of Warwick.

Can we assume that there may have been other children of Elizabeth de Calre
and William la Zouche Mortimer?

Historian T.B. Pugh, in 'Glamorgan County History Volume III: The
Middle Ages' (University of Wales Press, 1971), pp. 176, 605 n. 60,
states that Eleanor de Clare and her second husband William Zouche had
only one son, the monk William. But in a footnote Pugh points out
that Dugdale's 'Monasticon', Volume II, p. 62 (which I haven't seen)
states that Eleanor had a son Hugh Zouche. Since Eleanor did have a
son named Hugh (Despenser) - this may be an error on the part of
Dugdale or the chronicle he cited.

Eleanor turned age 38 in 1330, the year William Zouche the monk was
born. She died seven years later. I don't see the likelihood of her
having many more children after William, though its possible
biologically and chronologically for there to have been another.

Cheers, ---------Brad

Patricia Junkin

Re: Errata

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 17 nov 2004 02:56:26

Dear Brad, Douglas, James, Gordon and All,

Given the evidence presented, William la Zouche Mortimer, Glastonbury monk,
would certainly be the son of William la Zouche Mortimer and Eleanor de
Clare.
William's son Alan, his heir, had a son Hugh who died in 1368/69, naming his
uncle, Robert, aged, as his heir. If this William la Zouche Mortimer had a
son, Hugh, I would think he would have been of Alice, not Eleanor. I have in
my notes somewhere that Robert and Joyce had a son Hugh who did not use the
name Zouche,
In 2001 there was an in depth discussion of Steeple Lavington and the
Verdons with no mention of the la Zouches. As I have mentioned, Alan la
Zouche who died in 1313, left much to the Mortimer line. His IPM cites
Wilts. Hundred of Rughebergh. Inq. 24 April 7 E II [1314]
Stupellavyntone. A moiety of a messuage, 1 carucate land and 71s rent were
sometime given by the said Alan to John la Zouch for life and in 1329 at
Donhead St. Andrew [Wilts], by Roger de Pleystowe to Walter de Ferne and
Agnes his wife of all his yearly rent of 2s issuing from a tenement which
John Souche, Edith his wife and William, their son, hold for the term of
their lives.
Since this IPM also includes names in both the Mortimer and Haringworth
lines, in which does this John and son Willliam belong?
It also remains of question to me that Joyce's father whom Douglas has
identified as William of Essex was the son of Margaret Biset and Roger la
Zouche, d. ca. 1238. Alan d. c. 1190 and Adeliza de Belmis la Zouche had a
son, William styled as de Belmis. A William la Zouche who died in
1199,³confirmed to the monks at Swavsey, Cambr.² grants made by his
ancestors to the Abbey of St. Segue and Bachus in Anjou (Swavesey a cell);
this William called Roger his father and Alan Zouch, Earl of Britanny, son
of Geoffrey, his grandfather." The source for this is the History of
Leicestershire citing Dugdale's MA. As I read this, Roger and Margaret Biset
la Zouche's son, William died in 1199 which is inconsistent with William of
Essex being their son.
And, a last thought, since the office of sheriff was hereditary, is it
appropriate to assume that this William is also the William of
Essex:"Hundred of Bullingfield XXIII William la Zouche (Suche) the Sheriff,
took , by Exchequer summons 40 s. from the vill of Cuckfield (Cokkefeld) and
did not aquit the debtors...William la Zouche was Sheriff of Sussex
1262-63."

Thank you for your observations,
Pat

----------
From: batruth@hotmail.com (Brad Verity)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Errata
Date: Sun, Nov 14, 2004, 9:25 PM


pajunkin@cox.net ("Patricia Junkin") wrote in message news:

Thank you very much for this further elaboration. May I recap for general
agreement.
[snip]

Pat, I don't know about the other generations of Zouches, but the
summary info on William la Zouche, Eleanor de Clare, and their son the
monk all looks accurate.

Rosie Bevan pointed out evidence that Alice, the wife of John de
Multon, baron of Egremont (d. 1334), was a daughter of William la
Zouche of Mortimer by his first wife Alice, countess of Warwick.

Can we assume that there may have been other children of Elizabeth de Calre
and William la Zouche Mortimer?

Historian T.B. Pugh, in 'Glamorgan County History Volume III: The
Middle Ages' (University of Wales Press, 1971), pp. 176, 605 n. 60,
states that Eleanor de Clare and her second husband William Zouche had
only one son, the monk William. But in a footnote Pugh points out
that Dugdale's 'Monasticon', Volume II, p. 62 (which I haven't seen)
states that Eleanor had a son Hugh Zouche. Since Eleanor did have a
son named Hugh (Despenser) - this may be an error on the part of
Dugdale or the chronicle he cited.

Eleanor turned age 38 in 1330, the year William Zouche the monk was
born. She died seven years later. I don't see the likelihood of her
having many more children after William, though its possible
biologically and chronologically for there to have been another.

Cheers, ---------Brad

Brad Verity

Eleanor de Clare's Zouche Son (was Re: Errata)

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 19 nov 2004 23:34:13

pajunkin@cox.net ("Patricia Junkin") wrote in message news:

Can we assume that there may have been other children of Elizabeth de Calre
and William la Zouche Mortimer?

batruth@hotmail.com (Brad Verity) wrote in message news:

Historian T.B. Pugh, in 'Glamorgan County History Volume III: The
Middle Ages' (University of Wales Press, 1971), pp. 176, 605 n. 60,
states that Eleanor de Clare and her second husband William Zouche had
only one son, the monk William. But in a footnote Pugh points out
that Dugdale's 'Monasticon', Volume II, p. 62 (which I haven't seen)
states that Eleanor had a son Hugh Zouche. Since Eleanor did have a
son named Hugh (Despenser) - this may be an error on the part of
Dugdale or the chronicle he cited.

I've had a chance to download the reference from Dugdale's Monasticon.
Dugdale's source for Hugh Zouche, son of Eleanor de Clare was the
Chronica de Tewkesburye in Bibliotheca Cottoniana. This was the
Tewkesbury Chronicle that CP used as a source for many of its Clare
and Despenser articles. The Chronicle was written in the reign of
Edward IV, so almost 150 years after Eleanor de Clare's death. Here
is the passage:

"Obiit domina Eleanora uxor ejusdem ij. kal. Julii anno Domini
MCCCXXXVij. Ista erat mater Hugonis tertii, et Edwardi primi, et
Gilberti le Despencer per conjugem suam Hugonem secundum. Post mortem
ejus maritata fuit domino Willielmus le Sowch, de quo genuit Hugonem
Souch."

The Tewkesbury Chronicle only gives Eleanor one son by William la
Zouche. It was incorrect on the son's first name, which we know from
contemporary records (Cal. Patent Rolls, Elizabeth, Lady of Clare's
household records) was 'William' not 'Hugh'. The Tewkesbury Chronicle
messes up a number of other first names - it refers to Margaret de
Clare, Eleanor's sister, as 'Isabella', and gives Edward le Despenser
and Anne Ferrers (Eleanor's son and daughter-in-law), four sons named
Edward, Thomas, Henry, and Gilbert, when we also know from
contemporary records the fourth son was named 'Hugh' not 'Gilbert'.

So, it seems Eleanor had only one child by William la Zouche - the son
named William who became a monk at Glastonbury.

Cheers, -----Brad

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