question about daughter of Visigoth Theodoric I or Flavius A
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Dora Smith
question about daughter of Visigoth Theodoric I or Flavius A
On the USA Television miniseries, Attila, there is a subplot of a girl,
raised by Roman general Flavius Aetius, who was actually the daughter of the
Visigoth king Theodosius I, who was killed at the battle of Chalons/
Catalaunian Plains, in 451 AD. Another detail provided is that Aetius and
Theodoric had somehow managed to both marry the same woman. The name of
the girl is incomprehensible on the film, but from the cast of characters,
her name must be either Palcharia or Lydia. It sounded like Rulidia or
Validia, and on one occasion it sounded like Theodosius referred to her as
Val. This girl did not just appear at the moment when Aetius handed her
over to Theodosius as part of a deal; she is his family from the beginning
of the film, and as Aetius' daughter he and she were close.
The film was not strictly historically accurate, but I verified the
existence of every other character in the story but Attila's advisor with
the Greek name, and the gross historical details are either accurate or
based on well known legend. This girl would be the first major part of the
story to be completely made up.
On the Internet I cannot find any mention of a daughter or a wife who was
shared by these two men. I cannot find the name Palcharia in Google except
as a character in this film. I did find a confusing and very vague mix of
hostage takings and killings that could conceivably contain the explanation.
Can anyone tell me if Theodoric I ever had a wife who became married to
Aetius, or if he had any daughter who was raised by Aetius or in Rome, or a
daughter named either Palcharia or Lydia?
If she did exist - does history tell us what became of her? The film has
Theodosius send her over the mountains to Spain never to be seen again, just
before Aetius arranges for his death in battle. (Theodosius did die at the
time of that battle, and there are atleast three versions of how that
happened.)
Thanks much!
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
raised by Roman general Flavius Aetius, who was actually the daughter of the
Visigoth king Theodosius I, who was killed at the battle of Chalons/
Catalaunian Plains, in 451 AD. Another detail provided is that Aetius and
Theodoric had somehow managed to both marry the same woman. The name of
the girl is incomprehensible on the film, but from the cast of characters,
her name must be either Palcharia or Lydia. It sounded like Rulidia or
Validia, and on one occasion it sounded like Theodosius referred to her as
Val. This girl did not just appear at the moment when Aetius handed her
over to Theodosius as part of a deal; she is his family from the beginning
of the film, and as Aetius' daughter he and she were close.
The film was not strictly historically accurate, but I verified the
existence of every other character in the story but Attila's advisor with
the Greek name, and the gross historical details are either accurate or
based on well known legend. This girl would be the first major part of the
story to be completely made up.
On the Internet I cannot find any mention of a daughter or a wife who was
shared by these two men. I cannot find the name Palcharia in Google except
as a character in this film. I did find a confusing and very vague mix of
hostage takings and killings that could conceivably contain the explanation.
Can anyone tell me if Theodoric I ever had a wife who became married to
Aetius, or if he had any daughter who was raised by Aetius or in Rome, or a
daughter named either Palcharia or Lydia?
If she did exist - does history tell us what became of her? The film has
Theodosius send her over the mountains to Spain never to be seen again, just
before Aetius arranges for his death in battle. (Theodosius did die at the
time of that battle, and there are atleast three versions of how that
happened.)
Thanks much!
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
-
Dora Smith
Re: question about daughter of Visigoth Theodoric I or Flavi
One other detail; this woman who was married to both Theodoric and Aetius
had died somehow, and Theodoric blamed Aetius. Aetius told Attila this is
why Theodoric hated him. He neglected to mention the girl. Aetius did
not necessarily leave out nothing else important.
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
St. David's Episcopal Church
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
"Dora Smith" <villandra@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:dgkid.4646$nD6.1239@fe2.texas.rr.com...
had died somehow, and Theodoric blamed Aetius. Aetius told Attila this is
why Theodoric hated him. He neglected to mention the girl. Aetius did
not necessarily leave out nothing else important.
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
St. David's Episcopal Church
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
"Dora Smith" <villandra@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:dgkid.4646$nD6.1239@fe2.texas.rr.com...
On the USA Television miniseries, Attila, there is a subplot of a girl,
raised by Roman general Flavius Aetius, who was actually the daughter of
the
Visigoth king Theodosius I, who was killed at the battle of Chalons/
Catalaunian Plains, in 451 AD. Another detail provided is that Aetius
and
Theodoric had somehow managed to both marry the same woman. The name of
the girl is incomprehensible on the film, but from the cast of characters,
her name must be either Palcharia or Lydia. It sounded like Rulidia or
Validia, and on one occasion it sounded like Theodosius referred to her as
Val. This girl did not just appear at the moment when Aetius handed her
over to Theodosius as part of a deal; she is his family from the beginning
of the film, and as Aetius' daughter he and she were close.
The film was not strictly historically accurate, but I verified the
existence of every other character in the story but Attila's advisor with
the Greek name, and the gross historical details are either accurate or
based on well known legend. This girl would be the first major part of
the
story to be completely made up.
On the Internet I cannot find any mention of a daughter or a wife who was
shared by these two men. I cannot find the name Palcharia in Google
except
as a character in this film. I did find a confusing and very vague mix
of
hostage takings and killings that could conceivably contain the
explanation.
Can anyone tell me if Theodoric I ever had a wife who became married to
Aetius, or if he had any daughter who was raised by Aetius or in Rome, or
a
daughter named either Palcharia or Lydia?
If she did exist - does history tell us what became of her? The film has
Theodosius send her over the mountains to Spain never to be seen again,
just
before Aetius arranges for his death in battle. (Theodosius did die at
the
time of that battle, and there are atleast three versions of how that
happened.)
Thanks much!
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: question about daughter of Visigoth Theodoric I or Flavi
Not Theodosius; Theoderid, a Balthi.
fa
--- Dora Smith <villandra@austin.rr.com> escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
fa
--- Dora Smith <villandra@austin.rr.com> escreveu:
On the USA Television miniseries, Attila, there is a
subplot of a girl,
raised by Roman general Flavius Aetius, who was
actually the daughter of the
Visigoth king Theodosius I, who was killed at the
battle of Chalons/
Catalaunian Plains, in 451 AD. Another detail
provided is that Aetius and
Theodoric had somehow managed to both marry the same
woman. The name of
the girl is incomprehensible on the film, but from
the cast of characters,
her name must be either Palcharia or Lydia. It
sounded like Rulidia or
Validia, and on one occasion it sounded like
Theodosius referred to her as
Val. This girl did not just appear at the moment
when Aetius handed her
over to Theodosius as part of a deal; she is his
family from the beginning
of the film, and as Aetius' daughter he and she were
close.
The film was not strictly historically accurate, but
I verified the
existence of every other character in the story but
Attila's advisor with
the Greek name, and the gross historical details are
either accurate or
based on well known legend. This girl would be the
first major part of the
story to be completely made up.
On the Internet I cannot find any mention of a
daughter or a wife who was
shared by these two men. I cannot find the name
Palcharia in Google except
as a character in this film. I did find a
confusing and very vague mix of
hostage takings and killings that could conceivably
contain the explanation.
Can anyone tell me if Theodoric I ever had a wife
who became married to
Aetius, or if he had any daughter who was raised by
Aetius or in Rome, or a
daughter named either Palcharia or Lydia?
If she did exist - does history tell us what became
of her? The film has
Theodosius send her over the mountains to Spain
never to be seen again, just
before Aetius arranges for his death in battle.
(Theodosius did die at the
time of that battle, and there are atleast three
versions of how that
happened.)
Thanks much!
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
marshall kirk
Re: question about daughter of Visigoth Theodoric I or Flavi
"Pulcheria" was the name of a Byzantine empress, if I remember
correctly. (390s to 450s?) Neither "Rulidia" nor "Validia" rings a
bell -- 'Palladia,' perhaps? Tho' that's hardly the sort of name I'd
expect for the daughter of a Visigothic king. The rest of the story
sounds strange to me, but I'd look it up if I weren't at work. I'll
do so *after* work, if you like.
These historical epics often play fast and loose with history -- quite
unnecessary for a period like that, which was almost preposterously
lurid. The successive deaths of Aetius at the hand of Valentinian (an
act which was characterized by a mordant wit of the day as 'chopping
off one's right hand with one's left'), of Valentinian at the hands of
two of Aetius' retainers, and of Valentinian's successor (accused,
rightly or wrongly, of having contrived both the aforementioned
deaths) at the hands of his domestics, who allegedly ripped him apart
and threw his *disjecta membra* into the Tiber, all this immediately
followed by the Vandal sack of Rome and the captivity of the empress
and her two daughters ... cumulatively, more than enough for a garish
spectacle.---I remember shuddering at _Gladiator_ (eye-candy tho' it
certainly was), which seemed to suggest that the Romans of 180 CE were
in possession of something awfully like napalm (presumably a grossly
anachronistic exaggeration of the much later Greek Fire), and that
Commodus was killed in the arena by Our Hero. (C. died quite
differently.) My favorite, tho', was the senator Gaius, which, given
that it's a forename, is like postulating a modern 'senator Timmy.'
"Dora Smith" <villandra@austin.rr.com> wrote in message news:<njkid.4660$nD6.429@fe2.texas.rr.com>...
correctly. (390s to 450s?) Neither "Rulidia" nor "Validia" rings a
bell -- 'Palladia,' perhaps? Tho' that's hardly the sort of name I'd
expect for the daughter of a Visigothic king. The rest of the story
sounds strange to me, but I'd look it up if I weren't at work. I'll
do so *after* work, if you like.
These historical epics often play fast and loose with history -- quite
unnecessary for a period like that, which was almost preposterously
lurid. The successive deaths of Aetius at the hand of Valentinian (an
act which was characterized by a mordant wit of the day as 'chopping
off one's right hand with one's left'), of Valentinian at the hands of
two of Aetius' retainers, and of Valentinian's successor (accused,
rightly or wrongly, of having contrived both the aforementioned
deaths) at the hands of his domestics, who allegedly ripped him apart
and threw his *disjecta membra* into the Tiber, all this immediately
followed by the Vandal sack of Rome and the captivity of the empress
and her two daughters ... cumulatively, more than enough for a garish
spectacle.---I remember shuddering at _Gladiator_ (eye-candy tho' it
certainly was), which seemed to suggest that the Romans of 180 CE were
in possession of something awfully like napalm (presumably a grossly
anachronistic exaggeration of the much later Greek Fire), and that
Commodus was killed in the arena by Our Hero. (C. died quite
differently.) My favorite, tho', was the senator Gaius, which, given
that it's a forename, is like postulating a modern 'senator Timmy.'
"Dora Smith" <villandra@austin.rr.com> wrote in message news:<njkid.4660$nD6.429@fe2.texas.rr.com>...
One other detail; this woman who was married to both Theodoric and Aetius
had died somehow, and Theodoric blamed Aetius. Aetius told Attila this is
why Theodoric hated him. He neglected to mention the girl. Aetius did
not necessarily leave out nothing else important.
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
St. David's Episcopal Church
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
"Dora Smith" <villandra@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:dgkid.4646$nD6.1239@fe2.texas.rr.com...
On the USA Television miniseries, Attila, there is a subplot of a girl,
raised by Roman general Flavius Aetius, who was actually the daughter of
the
Visigoth king Theodosius I, who was killed at the battle of Chalons/
Catalaunian Plains, in 451 AD. Another detail provided is that Aetius
and
Theodoric had somehow managed to both marry the same woman. The name of
the girl is incomprehensible on the film, but from the cast of characters,
her name must be either Palcharia or Lydia. It sounded like Rulidia or
Validia, and on one occasion it sounded like Theodosius referred to her as
Val. This girl did not just appear at the moment when Aetius handed her
over to Theodosius as part of a deal; she is his family from the beginning
of the film, and as Aetius' daughter he and she were close.
The film was not strictly historically accurate, but I verified the
existence of every other character in the story but Attila's advisor with
the Greek name, and the gross historical details are either accurate or
based on well known legend. This girl would be the first major part of
the
story to be completely made up.
On the Internet I cannot find any mention of a daughter or a wife who was
shared by these two men. I cannot find the name Palcharia in Google
except
as a character in this film. I did find a confusing and very vague mix
of
hostage takings and killings that could conceivably contain the
explanation.
Can anyone tell me if Theodoric I ever had a wife who became married to
Aetius, or if he had any daughter who was raised by Aetius or in Rome, or
a
daughter named either Palcharia or Lydia?
If she did exist - does history tell us what became of her? The film has
Theodosius send her over the mountains to Spain never to be seen again,
just
before Aetius arranges for his death in battle. (Theodosius did die at
the
time of that battle, and there are atleast three versions of how that
happened.)
Thanks much!
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
-
Dora Smith
Re: question about daughter of Visigoth Theodoric I or Flavi
If you would look it up, I'd appreciate it. I happen to be fascinated with
this particular story.
I am wondering if perhaps her name as given on the movie had been Romanized?
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
St. David's Episcopal Church
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
"marshall kirk" <mkkirk@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:1c74a9e5.0411040626.eee22f8@posting.google.com...
this particular story.
I am wondering if perhaps her name as given on the movie had been Romanized?
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
St. David's Episcopal Church
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
"marshall kirk" <mkkirk@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:1c74a9e5.0411040626.eee22f8@posting.google.com...
"Pulcheria" was the name of a Byzantine empress, if I remember
correctly. (390s to 450s?) Neither "Rulidia" nor "Validia" rings a
bell -- 'Palladia,' perhaps? Tho' that's hardly the sort of name I'd
expect for the daughter of a Visigothic king. The rest of the story
sounds strange to me, but I'd look it up if I weren't at work. I'll
do so *after* work, if you like.
These historical epics often play fast and loose with history -- quite
unnecessary for a period like that, which was almost preposterously
lurid. The successive deaths of Aetius at the hand of Valentinian (an
act which was characterized by a mordant wit of the day as 'chopping
off one's right hand with one's left'), of Valentinian at the hands of
two of Aetius' retainers, and of Valentinian's successor (accused,
rightly or wrongly, of having contrived both the aforementioned
deaths) at the hands of his domestics, who allegedly ripped him apart
and threw his *disjecta membra* into the Tiber, all this immediately
followed by the Vandal sack of Rome and the captivity of the empress
and her two daughters ... cumulatively, more than enough for a garish
spectacle.---I remember shuddering at _Gladiator_ (eye-candy tho' it
certainly was), which seemed to suggest that the Romans of 180 CE were
in possession of something awfully like napalm (presumably a grossly
anachronistic exaggeration of the much later Greek Fire), and that
Commodus was killed in the arena by Our Hero. (C. died quite
differently.) My favorite, tho', was the senator Gaius, which, given
that it's a forename, is like postulating a modern 'senator Timmy.'
"Dora Smith" <villandra@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:<njkid.4660$nD6.429@fe2.texas.rr.com>...
One other detail; this woman who was married to both Theodoric and
Aetius
had died somehow, and Theodoric blamed Aetius. Aetius told Attila this
is
why Theodoric hated him. He neglected to mention the girl. Aetius
did
not necessarily leave out nothing else important.
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
St. David's Episcopal Church
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
"Dora Smith" <villandra@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:dgkid.4646$nD6.1239@fe2.texas.rr.com...
On the USA Television miniseries, Attila, there is a subplot of a
girl,
raised by Roman general Flavius Aetius, who was actually the daughter
of
the
Visigoth king Theodosius I, who was killed at the battle of Chalons/
Catalaunian Plains, in 451 AD. Another detail provided is that
Aetius
and
Theodoric had somehow managed to both marry the same woman. The name
of
the girl is incomprehensible on the film, but from the cast of
characters,
her name must be either Palcharia or Lydia. It sounded like Rulidia
or
Validia, and on one occasion it sounded like Theodosius referred to
her as
Val. This girl did not just appear at the moment when Aetius handed
her
over to Theodosius as part of a deal; she is his family from the
beginning
of the film, and as Aetius' daughter he and she were close.
The film was not strictly historically accurate, but I verified the
existence of every other character in the story but Attila's advisor
with
the Greek name, and the gross historical details are either accurate
or
based on well known legend. This girl would be the first major part
of
the
story to be completely made up.
On the Internet I cannot find any mention of a daughter or a wife who
was
shared by these two men. I cannot find the name Palcharia in Google
except
as a character in this film. I did find a confusing and very vague
mix
of
hostage takings and killings that could conceivably contain the
explanation.
Can anyone tell me if Theodoric I ever had a wife who became married
to
Aetius, or if he had any daughter who was raised by Aetius or in Rome,
or
a
daughter named either Palcharia or Lydia?
If she did exist - does history tell us what became of her? The film
has
Theodosius send her over the mountains to Spain never to be seen
again,
just
before Aetius arranges for his death in battle. (Theodosius did die
at
the
time of that battle, and there are atleast three versions of how that
happened.)
Thanks much!
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
-
Dora Smith
Re: question about daughter of Visigoth Theodoric I or Flavi
Brother - all some people have to say on my question I got the name wrong -
and we're talking 5th century!
I know that the name was spelled two ways, but the commonly used spelling is
Theodoric.
I honestly doubt that his Balthic tribe were spelling it any way as they had
no alphabet and couldn't write.
In that time, pronunciations of the names of Germanic kings morphed and
changed all over the place.
My guess is Theodoric is how peoples around them pronounced it.
I'm perfectly happy with giving the version that's actually going to produce
results in the search engine, library card catalogue, index, or
encyclopedia, thank you.
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
St. David's Episcopal Church
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
"Francisco Antonio Doria" <franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote in
message news:20041104111322.51812.qmail@web41704.mail.yahoo.com...
and we're talking 5th century!
I know that the name was spelled two ways, but the commonly used spelling is
Theodoric.
I honestly doubt that his Balthic tribe were spelling it any way as they had
no alphabet and couldn't write.
In that time, pronunciations of the names of Germanic kings morphed and
changed all over the place.
My guess is Theodoric is how peoples around them pronounced it.
I'm perfectly happy with giving the version that's actually going to produce
results in the search engine, library card catalogue, index, or
encyclopedia, thank you.
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
St. David's Episcopal Church
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
"Francisco Antonio Doria" <franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote in
message news:20041104111322.51812.qmail@web41704.mail.yahoo.com...
Not Theodosius; Theoderid, a Balthi.
fa
--- Dora Smith <villandra@austin.rr.com> escreveu:
On the USA Television miniseries, Attila, there is a
subplot of a girl,
raised by Roman general Flavius Aetius, who was
actually the daughter of the
Visigoth king Theodosius I, who was killed at the
battle of Chalons/
Catalaunian Plains, in 451 AD. Another detail
provided is that Aetius and
Theodoric had somehow managed to both marry the same
woman. The name of
the girl is incomprehensible on the film, but from
the cast of characters,
her name must be either Palcharia or Lydia. It
sounded like Rulidia or
Validia, and on one occasion it sounded like
Theodosius referred to her as
Val. This girl did not just appear at the moment
when Aetius handed her
over to Theodosius as part of a deal; she is his
family from the beginning
of the film, and as Aetius' daughter he and she were
close.
The film was not strictly historically accurate, but
I verified the
existence of every other character in the story but
Attila's advisor with
the Greek name, and the gross historical details are
either accurate or
based on well known legend. This girl would be the
first major part of the
story to be completely made up.
On the Internet I cannot find any mention of a
daughter or a wife who was
shared by these two men. I cannot find the name
Palcharia in Google except
as a character in this film. I did find a
confusing and very vague mix of
hostage takings and killings that could conceivably
contain the explanation.
Can anyone tell me if Theodoric I ever had a wife
who became married to
Aetius, or if he had any daughter who was raised by
Aetius or in Rome, or a
daughter named either Palcharia or Lydia?
If she did exist - does history tell us what became
of her? The film has
Theodosius send her over the mountains to Spain
never to be seen again, just
before Aetius arranges for his death in battle.
(Theodosius did die at the
time of that battle, and there are atleast three
versions of how that
happened.)
Thanks much!
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora!
http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: question about daughter of Visigoth Theodoric I or Flavi
In message of 4 Nov, mkkirk@rcn.com (marshall kirk) wrote:
From my potted Byzantine history (330-1453) by John Julius Norwich,
there was indeed an heir to the imperial family called Pulcheria and her
husband Marcian was eastern emperor from 450-7.
(See below for another comment or two.)
Theodosius I was a joint emperor from 379-2 and married (1) Aelia
Flacilla, (2) Galla.
Norwich originally wrote a longer three-volume account of the Byzantine
empire and it might be that your questions will be answered there. The
volumes were published between 1988 and 1995 and should be in any "good
library" - in other words, ask before you make the trek.
Norwich includes some genealogical tables of the various imperial
families but no sources, nor any in his text, at least not in the potted
one-volume version, published in 1997.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
"Pulcheria" was the name of a Byzantine empress, if I remember
correctly. (390s to 450s?)
From my potted Byzantine history (330-1453) by John Julius Norwich,
there was indeed an heir to the imperial family called Pulcheria and her
husband Marcian was eastern emperor from 450-7.
(See below for another comment or two.)
Neither "Rulidia" nor "Validia" rings a bell -- 'Palladia,' perhaps?
Tho' that's hardly the sort of name I'd expect for the daughter of a
Visigothic king. The rest of the story sounds strange to me, but I'd
look it up if I weren't at work. I'll do so *after* work, if you
like.
These historical epics often play fast and loose with history -- quite
unnecessary for a period like that, which was almost preposterously
lurid. The successive deaths of Aetius at the hand of Valentinian (an
act which was characterized by a mordant wit of the day as 'chopping
off one's right hand with one's left'), of Valentinian at the hands of
two of Aetius' retainers, and of Valentinian's successor (accused,
rightly or wrongly, of having contrived both the aforementioned
deaths) at the hands of his domestics, who allegedly ripped him apart
and threw his *disjecta membra* into the Tiber, all this immediately
followed by the Vandal sack of Rome and the captivity of the empress
and her two daughters ... cumulatively, more than enough for a garish
spectacle.---I remember shuddering at _Gladiator_ (eye-candy tho' it
certainly was), which seemed to suggest that the Romans of 180 CE were
in possession of something awfully like napalm (presumably a grossly
anachronistic exaggeration of the much later Greek Fire), and that
Commodus was killed in the arena by Our Hero. (C. died quite
differently.) My favorite, tho', was the senator Gaius, which, given
that it's a forename, is like postulating a modern 'senator Timmy.'
"Dora Smith" <villandra@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:<njkid.4660$nD6.429@fe2.texas.rr.com>...
One other detail; this woman who was married to both Theodoric and
Aetius had died somehow, and Theodoric blamed Aetius. Aetius told
Attila this is why Theodoric hated him. He neglected to mention
the girl. Aetius did not necessarily leave out nothing else
important.
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
St. David's Episcopal Church
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
"Dora Smith" <villandra@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:dgkid.4646$nD6.1239@fe2.texas.rr.com...
On the USA Television miniseries, Attila, there is a subplot of a
girl, raised by Roman general Flavius Aetius, who was actually
the daughter of the Visigoth king Theodosius I, who was killed at
the battle of Chalons/ Catalaunian Plains, in 451 AD. Another
detail provided is that Aetius and Theodoric had somehow managed
to both marry the same woman. The name of the girl is
incomprehensible on the film, but from the cast of characters,
her name must be either Palcharia or Lydia. It sounded like
Rulidia or Validia, and on one occasion it sounded like
Theodosius referred to her as Val. This girl did not just appear
at the moment when Aetius handed her over to Theodosius as part
of a deal; she is his family from the beginning of the film, and
as Aetius' daughter he and she were close.
Theodosius I was a joint emperor from 379-2 and married (1) Aelia
Flacilla, (2) Galla.
The film was not strictly historically accurate, but I verified
the existence of every other character in the story but Attila's
advisor with the Greek name, and the gross historical details are
either accurate or based on well known legend. This girl would
be the first major part of the story to be completely made up.
On the Internet I cannot find any mention of a daughter or a wife
who was shared by these two men. I cannot find the name
Palcharia in Google except as a character in this film. I did
find a confusing and very vague mix of hostage takings and
killings that could conceivably contain the explanation.
Can anyone tell me if Theodoric I ever had a wife who became
married to Aetius, or if he had any daughter who was raised by
Aetius or in Rome, or a daughter named either Palcharia or Lydia?
If she did exist - does history tell us what became of her? The
film has Theodosius send her over the mountains to Spain never to
be seen again, just before Aetius arranges for his death in battle.
(Theodosius did die at the time of that battle, and there are atleast
three versions of how that happened.)
Norwich originally wrote a longer three-volume account of the Byzantine
empire and it might be that your questions will be answered there. The
volumes were published between 1988 and 1995 and should be in any "good
library" - in other words, ask before you make the trek.
Norwich includes some genealogical tables of the various imperial
families but no sources, nor any in his text, at least not in the potted
one-volume version, published in 1997.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Michael Andrews-Reading
Re: question about daughter of Visigoth Theodoric I or Flavi
"Dora Smith" <villandra@austin.rr.com> wrote in message news:<dgkid.4646$nD6.1239@fe2.texas.rr.com>...
Others will know far more than I (I got a headache trying to work out
whether you meant Theodosius or Theoderic to start with) but to get
things rolling, I can't find any historical reference to the girl you
are posting about, although Theoderic I (d 451), the Visigothic king,
had at least one daughter, married to Huneric, King of the Vandals,
according to the notes I have to hand. The name "Palcharia" is
curiously close to that of Pulcheria, the sister of Emperor Theodosius
II who ruled the eastern part of the empire until 450.
On the USA Television miniseries, Attila, there is a subplot of a girl,
raised by Roman general Flavius Aetius, who was actually the daughter of the
Visigoth king Theodosius I, who was killed at the battle of Chalons/
Catalaunian Plains, in 451 AD. Another detail provided is that Aetius and
Theodoric had somehow managed to both marry the same woman. The name of
the girl is incomprehensible on the film, but from the cast of characters,
her name must be either Palcharia or Lydia. It sounded like Rulidia or
Validia, and on one occasion it sounded like Theodosius referred to her as
Val. This girl did not just appear at the moment when Aetius handed her
over to Theodosius as part of a deal; she is his family from the beginning
of the film, and as Aetius' daughter he and she were close.
The film was not strictly historically accurate, but I verified the
existence of every other character in the story but Attila's advisor with
the Greek name, and the gross historical details are either accurate or
based on well known legend. This girl would be the first major part of the
story to be completely made up.
On the Internet I cannot find any mention of a daughter or a wife who was
shared by these two men. I cannot find the name Palcharia in Google except
as a character in this film. I did find a confusing and very vague mix of
hostage takings and killings that could conceivably contain the explanation.
Can anyone tell me if Theodoric I ever had a wife who became married to
Aetius, or if he had any daughter who was raised by Aetius or in Rome, or a
daughter named either Palcharia or Lydia?
If she did exist - does history tell us what became of her? The film has
Theodosius send her over the mountains to Spain never to be seen again, just
before Aetius arranges for his death in battle. (Theodosius did die at the
time of that battle, and there are atleast three versions of how that
happened.)
Thanks much!
Others will know far more than I (I got a headache trying to work out
whether you meant Theodosius or Theoderic to start with) but to get
things rolling, I can't find any historical reference to the girl you
are posting about, although Theoderic I (d 451), the Visigothic king,
had at least one daughter, married to Huneric, King of the Vandals,
according to the notes I have to hand. The name "Palcharia" is
curiously close to that of Pulcheria, the sister of Emperor Theodosius
II who ruled the eastern part of the empire until 450.
-
marshall kirk
Re: question about daughter of Visigoth Theodoric I or Flavi
Chico's point is that, a couple of times, you refer to the man as
Theodosius, and this is indeed an entirely different name. I also
rather think that Theoderid is a different name from Theoderic or
-doric, but of this I'm less confident. In any case, Theodosius, if
entered into a search engine, will certainly lead you down the wrong
path.
There's a VERY long entry on Aetius in the _PLRE_, ser. 2 vol. 2. The
genealogical details, which are probably as thorough as you're going
to get, are (a) he was born ~390 to Gaudentius and a wealthy Italian
noblewoman; (b) he married, first, a daughter of Carpilio by whom he
had a son of the same name; (c) he married, second, Pelagia -- and
HERE, by gum, is the name we're looking for -- widow of one
Bonifatius, who was himself a Roman official of no known affiliation
with the Visigoths -- who is said, despite her name, to have been "of
barbarian origin, probably Visigothic." That would be the seed of the
movie's story, tho' Theoderid (or whatever) doesn't seem to enter into
the facts. (I admit I haven't looked up her entry. She doesn't seem
to have been married to the Visigothic king, tho'.) Pelagia is said
to have had a daughter by Bonifatius, and here, perhaps, is more of
the plot. Aetius (d) may also have had a daughter who married
Thraustila. He certainly had lifelong associations of many sorts with
the barbarians, which seems to have been a great help in both
diplomacy and war.
In short, it appears that the scriptwriter took less liberty with
history than I cynically supposed. (Tho' I haven't seen the movie.)
An interesting and complicated tale! IIRC, Aetius' assassination
occurred in 454; that of Valentinian III (who seems to have been a
callow scoundrel, a part tailor-made for, once again, Joaquin Phoenix
-- or so I opine), in early 455. V.'s death was immediately followed
by the ten-week reign of Petronius Maximus, in whom I have a special
interest; Maximus was succeeded -- under circumstances that are
recounted in detail but are nevertheless by no means clear -- by
Eparchius Avitus, father-in-law of the famous Sidonius. (Our major
source for Avitus' accession, and not exactly an unbiased one. It's
often rather clear that Sidonius, a politician to the fingertips,
isn't telling us the whole story.) In short, events moved with a
speed and fury that, if featured in a novel, would be justly accused
of lacking verisimilitude.
Hope this is of some help. It's certainly helped (and intrigued) me.
"Dora Smith" <villandra@austin.rr.com> wrote in message news:<bDrid.7785$nD6.2324@fe2.texas.rr.com>...
Theodosius, and this is indeed an entirely different name. I also
rather think that Theoderid is a different name from Theoderic or
-doric, but of this I'm less confident. In any case, Theodosius, if
entered into a search engine, will certainly lead you down the wrong
path.
There's a VERY long entry on Aetius in the _PLRE_, ser. 2 vol. 2. The
genealogical details, which are probably as thorough as you're going
to get, are (a) he was born ~390 to Gaudentius and a wealthy Italian
noblewoman; (b) he married, first, a daughter of Carpilio by whom he
had a son of the same name; (c) he married, second, Pelagia -- and
HERE, by gum, is the name we're looking for -- widow of one
Bonifatius, who was himself a Roman official of no known affiliation
with the Visigoths -- who is said, despite her name, to have been "of
barbarian origin, probably Visigothic." That would be the seed of the
movie's story, tho' Theoderid (or whatever) doesn't seem to enter into
the facts. (I admit I haven't looked up her entry. She doesn't seem
to have been married to the Visigothic king, tho'.) Pelagia is said
to have had a daughter by Bonifatius, and here, perhaps, is more of
the plot. Aetius (d) may also have had a daughter who married
Thraustila. He certainly had lifelong associations of many sorts with
the barbarians, which seems to have been a great help in both
diplomacy and war.
In short, it appears that the scriptwriter took less liberty with
history than I cynically supposed. (Tho' I haven't seen the movie.)
An interesting and complicated tale! IIRC, Aetius' assassination
occurred in 454; that of Valentinian III (who seems to have been a
callow scoundrel, a part tailor-made for, once again, Joaquin Phoenix
-- or so I opine), in early 455. V.'s death was immediately followed
by the ten-week reign of Petronius Maximus, in whom I have a special
interest; Maximus was succeeded -- under circumstances that are
recounted in detail but are nevertheless by no means clear -- by
Eparchius Avitus, father-in-law of the famous Sidonius. (Our major
source for Avitus' accession, and not exactly an unbiased one. It's
often rather clear that Sidonius, a politician to the fingertips,
isn't telling us the whole story.) In short, events moved with a
speed and fury that, if featured in a novel, would be justly accused
of lacking verisimilitude.
Hope this is of some help. It's certainly helped (and intrigued) me.
"Dora Smith" <villandra@austin.rr.com> wrote in message news:<bDrid.7785$nD6.2324@fe2.texas.rr.com>...
Brother - all some people have to say on my question I got the name wrong -
and we're talking 5th century!
I know that the name was spelled two ways, but the commonly used spelling is
Theodoric.
I honestly doubt that his Balthic tribe were spelling it any way as they had
no alphabet and couldn't write.
In that time, pronunciations of the names of Germanic kings morphed and
changed all over the place.
My guess is Theodoric is how peoples around them pronounced it.
I'm perfectly happy with giving the version that's actually going to produce
results in the search engine, library card catalogue, index, or
encyclopedia, thank you.
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
St. David's Episcopal Church
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
"Francisco Antonio Doria" <franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote in
message news:20041104111322.51812.qmail@web41704.mail.yahoo.com...
Not Theodosius; Theoderid, a Balthi.
fa
--- Dora Smith <villandra@austin.rr.com> escreveu:
On the USA Television miniseries, Attila, there is a
subplot of a girl,
raised by Roman general Flavius Aetius, who was
actually the daughter of the
Visigoth king Theodosius I, who was killed at the
battle of Chalons/
Catalaunian Plains, in 451 AD. Another detail
provided is that Aetius and
Theodoric had somehow managed to both marry the same
woman. The name of
the girl is incomprehensible on the film, but from
the cast of characters,
her name must be either Palcharia or Lydia. It
sounded like Rulidia or
Validia, and on one occasion it sounded like
Theodosius referred to her as
Val. This girl did not just appear at the moment
when Aetius handed her
over to Theodosius as part of a deal; she is his
family from the beginning
of the film, and as Aetius' daughter he and she were
close.
The film was not strictly historically accurate, but
I verified the
existence of every other character in the story but
Attila's advisor with
the Greek name, and the gross historical details are
either accurate or
based on well known legend. This girl would be the
first major part of the
story to be completely made up.
On the Internet I cannot find any mention of a
daughter or a wife who was
shared by these two men. I cannot find the name
Palcharia in Google except
as a character in this film. I did find a
confusing and very vague mix of
hostage takings and killings that could conceivably
contain the explanation.
Can anyone tell me if Theodoric I ever had a wife
who became married to
Aetius, or if he had any daughter who was raised by
Aetius or in Rome, or a
daughter named either Palcharia or Lydia?
If she did exist - does history tell us what became
of her? The film has
Theodosius send her over the mountains to Spain
never to be seen again, just
before Aetius arranges for his death in battle.
(Theodosius did die at the
time of that battle, and there are atleast three
versions of how that
happened.)
Thanks much!
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora!
http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: question about daughter of Visigoth Theodoric I or Flavi
I concede it's a minor point, but the individual in
question is well-known; his name is unusual, for
Theodoric appears among the Amahli twice - and this
Theodoric/Theoderid was a Balthi, a son-in-law of
Alaric and probably his kinsman.
Sorry for having bothered you,
fa
--- Dora Smith <villandra@austin.rr.com> escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
question is well-known; his name is unusual, for
Theodoric appears among the Amahli twice - and this
Theodoric/Theoderid was a Balthi, a son-in-law of
Alaric and probably his kinsman.
Sorry for having bothered you,
fa
--- Dora Smith <villandra@austin.rr.com> escreveu:
Brother - all some people have to say on my question
I got the name wrong -
and we're talking 5th century!
I know that the name was spelled two ways, but the
commonly used spelling is
Theodoric.
I honestly doubt that his Balthic tribe were
spelling it any way as they had
no alphabet and couldn't write.
In that time, pronunciations of the names of
Germanic kings morphed and
changed all over the place.
My guess is Theodoric is how peoples around them
pronounced it.
I'm perfectly happy with giving the version that's
actually going to produce
results in the search engine, library card
catalogue, index, or
encyclopedia, thank you.
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
St. David's Episcopal Church
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
"Francisco Antonio Doria"
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote in
message
news:20041104111322.51812.qmail@web41704.mail.yahoo.com...
Not Theodosius; Theoderid, a Balthi.
fa
--- Dora Smith <villandra@austin.rr.com
escreveu:
On the USA Television miniseries, Attila, there
is a
subplot of a girl,
raised by Roman general Flavius Aetius, who was
actually the daughter of the
Visigoth king Theodosius I, who was killed at
the
battle of Chalons/
Catalaunian Plains, in 451 AD. Another detail
provided is that Aetius and
Theodoric had somehow managed to both marry the
same
woman. The name of
the girl is incomprehensible on the film, but
from
the cast of characters,
her name must be either Palcharia or Lydia. It
sounded like Rulidia or
Validia, and on one occasion it sounded like
Theodosius referred to her as
Val. This girl did not just appear at the
moment
when Aetius handed her
over to Theodosius as part of a deal; she is his
family from the beginning
of the film, and as Aetius' daughter he and she
were
close.
The film was not strictly historically accurate,
but
I verified the
existence of every other character in the story
but
Attila's advisor with
the Greek name, and the gross historical details
are
either accurate or
based on well known legend. This girl would be
the
first major part of the
story to be completely made up.
On the Internet I cannot find any mention of a
daughter or a wife who was
shared by these two men. I cannot find the name
Palcharia in Google except
as a character in this film. I did find a
confusing and very vague mix of
hostage takings and killings that could
conceivably
contain the explanation.
Can anyone tell me if Theodoric I ever had a
wife
who became married to
Aetius, or if he had any daughter who was raised
by
Aetius or in Rome, or a
daughter named either Palcharia or Lydia?
If she did exist - does history tell us what
became
of her? The film has
Theodosius send her over the mountains to Spain
never to be seen again, just
before Aetius arranges for his death in battle.
(Theodosius did die at the
time of that battle, and there are atleast three
versions of how that
happened.)
Thanks much!
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis.
Instale o discador agora!
http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: question about daughter of Visigoth Theodoric I or Flavi
Dear Dora,
You don't have to believe what I'm saying, but please
do check _The Shorter Cambridge Medieval History_,
1952, vol. l, table at p. 132. I don't recall what
Herwig Wolfram says - I once had a long exchange with
him on Alaric's parentage (some Spanish sources
mentioned one Badengaud, a weird name, while Wolfram
told be he believed Alaric to be the son of Alaviv on
purely onomastic reasons).
You're certainly right in not taking my opinion for
granted; I myself always try to go to the original
documentary source, in a facsimile copy if possible,
to make up my mind. But here the matter is
controversial, for sure.
Good luck!
fa
--- Dora Smith <villandra@austin.rr.com> escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
You don't have to believe what I'm saying, but please
do check _The Shorter Cambridge Medieval History_,
1952, vol. l, table at p. 132. I don't recall what
Herwig Wolfram says - I once had a long exchange with
him on Alaric's parentage (some Spanish sources
mentioned one Badengaud, a weird name, while Wolfram
told be he believed Alaric to be the son of Alaviv on
purely onomastic reasons).
You're certainly right in not taking my opinion for
granted; I myself always try to go to the original
documentary source, in a facsimile copy if possible,
to make up my mind. But here the matter is
controversial, for sure.
Good luck!
fa
--- Dora Smith <villandra@austin.rr.com> escreveu:
It sounds like you have those details catalogued in
your head, though -
every place I've looked, Theodoric is an
illegitimate son of Alaric.
I'm just checking; in the movie, the girl presented
as the daughter of both
Theodoric and Aetius is called Lydia; did either of
them have such a
daughter, and did Theodoric have a wife who Aetius
even could have been
with; perhaps one of hte noblewomen who were held as
hostages?
Yours,
Dora Smith
St. David's Episcopal Church
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Francisco Antonio Doria"
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br
To: "Dora Smith" <villandra@austin.rr.com>;
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: question about daughter of Visigoth
Theodoric I or Flavius
Aetius
I concede it's a minor point, but the individual
in
question is well-known; his name is unusual, for
Theodoric appears among the Amahli twice - and
this
Theodoric/Theoderid was a Balthi, a son-in-law of
Alaric and probably his kinsman.
Sorry for having bothered you,
fa
--- Dora Smith <villandra@austin.rr.com
escreveu:
Brother - all some people have to say on my
question
I got the name wrong -
and we're talking 5th century!
I know that the name was spelled two ways, but
the
commonly used spelling is
Theodoric.
I honestly doubt that his Balthic tribe were
spelling it any way as they had
no alphabet and couldn't write.
In that time, pronunciations of the names of
Germanic kings morphed and
changed all over the place.
My guess is Theodoric is how peoples around them
pronounced it.
I'm perfectly happy with giving the version
that's
actually going to produce
results in the search engine, library card
catalogue, index, or
encyclopedia, thank you.
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
St. David's Episcopal Church
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
"Francisco Antonio Doria"
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote in
message
news:20041104111322.51812.qmail@web41704.mail.yahoo.com...
Not Theodosius; Theoderid, a Balthi.
fa
--- Dora Smith <villandra@austin.rr.com
escreveu:
On the USA Television miniseries, Attila,
there
is a
subplot of a girl,
raised by Roman general Flavius Aetius, who
was
actually the daughter of the
Visigoth king Theodosius I, who was killed
at
the
battle of Chalons/
Catalaunian Plains, in 451 AD. Another
detail
provided is that Aetius and
Theodoric had somehow managed to both marry
the
same
woman. The name of
the girl is incomprehensible on the film,
but
from
the cast of characters,
her name must be either Palcharia or Lydia.
It
sounded like Rulidia or
Validia, and on one occasion it sounded like
Theodosius referred to her as
Val. This girl did not just appear at the
moment
when Aetius handed her
over to Theodosius as part of a deal; she is
his
family from the beginning
of the film, and as Aetius' daughter he and
she
were
close.
The film was not strictly historically
accurate,
but
I verified the
existence of every other character in the
story
but
Attila's advisor with
the Greek name, and the gross historical
details
are
either accurate or
based on well known legend. This girl
would be
the
first major part of the
story to be completely made up.
On the Internet I cannot find any mention of
a
daughter or a wife who was
shared by these two men. I cannot find the
name
Palcharia in Google except
as a character in this film. I did find a
confusing and very vague mix of
hostage takings and killings that could
conceivably
contain the explanation.
Can anyone tell me if Theodoric I ever had a
wife
who became married to
Aetius, or if he had any daughter who was
raised
by
Aetius or in Rome, or a
daughter named either Palcharia or Lydia?
If she did exist - does history tell us what
became
of her? The film has
Theodosius send her over the mountains to
Spain
never to be seen again, just
before Aetius arranges for his death in
battle.
(Theodosius did die at the
time of that battle, and there are atleast
three
versions of how that
happened.)
Thanks much!
--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
_______________________________________________________
=== message truncated ===
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/