Enough Proof ?

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JDLail

Enough Proof ?

Legg inn av JDLail » 08 jan 2008 06:20:05

I have a case where one of my family (Confederate) from Georgia was
captured in the Civil War, taken to
Fort Columbus (NY City area), took the oath of allegiance, and was
released in Sept 1863. He never came
home. His four children were scattered between the paternal
grandparents and the mother.

However a man with his name shows up in Northern New Jersey within
months of his 1863 release . He
married and remained in Morris Co. NJ until his death in 1926. So its
reasonable to suspect that these
are the same guy. The surname here (Lail) was exceedingly rare at that
point in time and the given name
(James) had never been used before in the family,

This James appeared in 5 New Jersey census records from 1870-1920. In
all cases he lists his birthplace
as Georgia. In all cases but one he lists his fathers birthplace as
Georgia as well. The exception being
1920 when he gave it as North Carolina. And finally In all cases but
one he gives a birth year ca. 1846-7.
The exception being 1880 when he gave 1836-7 for his birth.

The James missing from my family was born 1834-7 in Tennessee but was
raised in Georgia. The family
moved there ca. 1842. His father was born in NC. So do I have enough
proof ? Thanks.

Christopher Jahn

Re: Enough Proof ?

Legg inn av Christopher Jahn » 08 jan 2008 14:47:36

JDLail <JDLail@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:198d97ae-d859-44a5-9b85-e10ac512bb13@m77g2000hsc.googlegroup
s.com:

I have a case where one of my family (Confederate) from
Georgia was captured in the Civil War, taken to
Fort Columbus (NY City area), took the oath of allegiance, and
was released in Sept 1863. He never came
home. His four children were scattered between the paternal
grandparents and the mother.

However a man with his name shows up in Northern New Jersey
within months of his 1863 release . He
married and remained in Morris Co. NJ until his death in 1926.
So its reasonable to suspect that these
are the same guy. The surname here (Lail) was exceedingly rare
at that point in time and the given name
(James) had never been used before in the family,

This James appeared in 5 New Jersey census records from
1870-1920. In all cases he lists his birthplace
as Georgia. In all cases but one he lists his fathers
birthplace as Georgia as well. The exception being
1920 when he gave it as North Carolina. And finally In all
cases but one he gives a birth year ca. 1846-7.
The exception being 1880 when he gave 1836-7 for his birth.

The James missing from my family was born 1834-7 in Tennessee
but was raised in Georgia. The family
moved there ca. 1842. His father was born in NC. So do I have
enough proof ? Thanks.

Census data can never be *proof*; not only do they not require
documentation, you have no way of knowing who provided the
information. Was this person REALLY James Lail, or someone
pretending to be him? The census taker wouldn't know; they may
not even have ever talked to him. Neighbors often provide the
information, and they don't always know.

While I think this is probably your guy, you need corroborating
evidence to have "proof." What you have now is only evidence.
But knowing where he was living, you know where to concentrate
you efforts for more evidence.



--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://soflatheatre.blogspot.com/

Fleas on my catma!

singhals

Re: Enough Proof ?

Legg inn av singhals » 08 jan 2008 16:28:43

JDLail wrote:

I have a case where one of my family (Confederate) from Georgia was
captured in the Civil War, taken to
Fort Columbus (NY City area), took the oath of allegiance, and was
released in Sept 1863. He never came
home. His four children were scattered between the paternal
grandparents and the mother.

However a man with his name shows up in Northern New Jersey within
months of his 1863 release . He
married and remained in Morris Co. NJ until his death in 1926. So its
reasonable to suspect that these
are the same guy. The surname here (Lail) was exceedingly rare at that
point in time and the given name
(James) had never been used before in the family,

This James appeared in 5 New Jersey census records from 1870-1920. In
all cases he lists his birthplace
as Georgia. In all cases but one he lists his fathers birthplace as
Georgia as well. The exception being
1920 when he gave it as North Carolina. And finally In all cases but
one he gives a birth year ca. 1846-7.
The exception being 1880 when he gave 1836-7 for his birth.

The James missing from my family was born 1834-7 in Tennessee but was
raised in Georgia. The family
moved there ca. 1842. His father was born in NC. So do I have enough
proof ? Thanks.





No. What you have listed is a nasty, misleading, set of
coincidences. (g)

What does the NJ death certificate have to say about his
parents? Did the NJ guy show up on the 1890 [yeah yeah, I
know, but look ANYWAY]? Is there a Union service or pension
record on him?

OTOH, generally speaking, POWs were transferred en masse,
not singly. Was he different and if so why? What does the
CSA service record show happened? What do the NJ tax lists
and/or voter lists reveal? Who'd he go and marry?

I'll agree it's a reasonable conclusion begging to be leapt
to, but you've not listed any _primary_ source for any of
it. Census records are a last-resort, when all's said and done.

Cheryl

James A. Doemer

Re: Enough Proof ?

Legg inn av James A. Doemer » 09 jan 2008 03:35:23

In News 198d97ae-d859-44a5-9b85-e10ac512bb13@m7 ... groups.com,,
JDLail at JDLail@yahoo.com, typed this:

I have a case where one of my family (Confederate) from Georgia was
captured in the Civil War, taken to
Fort Columbus (NY City area), took the oath of allegiance, and was
released in Sept 1863. He never came
home. His four children were scattered between the paternal
grandparents and the mother.

However a man with his name shows up in Northern New Jersey within
months of his 1863 release . He
married and remained in Morris Co. NJ until his death in 1926. So its
reasonable to suspect that these
are the same guy. The surname here (Lail) was exceedingly rare at that
point in time and the given name
(James) had never been used before in the family,

This James appeared in 5 New Jersey census records from 1870-1920. In
all cases he lists his birthplace
as Georgia. In all cases but one he lists his fathers birthplace as
Georgia as well. The exception being
1920 when he gave it as North Carolina. And finally In all cases but
one he gives a birth year ca. 1846-7.
The exception being 1880 when he gave 1836-7 for his birth.

The James missing from my family was born 1834-7 in Tennessee but was
raised in Georgia. The family
moved there ca. 1842. His father was born in NC. So do I have enough
proof ? Thanks.

I would say that your evidence is very strong. There is seldom any such
thing as slam-dunk proof when you're dealing with records that old.

Lesley Robertson

Re: Enough Proof ?

Legg inn av Lesley Robertson » 09 jan 2008 09:55:03

"James A. Doemer" <ckdbigtoeNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:OrCdnbVnt9l2rxnanZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@comcast.com...
In News
198d97ae-d859-44a5-9b85-e10ac512bb13@m7 ... groups.com,, JDLail
at JDLail@yahoo.com, typed this:

I have a case where one of my family (Confederate) from Georgia was
captured in the Civil War, taken to
Fort Columbus (NY City area), took the oath of allegiance, and was
released in Sept 1863. He never came
home. His four children were scattered between the paternal
grandparents and the mother.

However a man with his name shows up in Northern New Jersey within
months of his 1863 release . He
married and remained in Morris Co. NJ until his death in 1926. So its
reasonable to suspect that these
are the same guy. The surname here (Lail) was exceedingly rare at that
point in time and the given name
(James) had never been used before in the family,

This James appeared in 5 New Jersey census records from 1870-1920. In
all cases he lists his birthplace
as Georgia. In all cases but one he lists his fathers birthplace as
Georgia as well. The exception being
1920 when he gave it as North Carolina. And finally In all cases but
one he gives a birth year ca. 1846-7.
The exception being 1880 when he gave 1836-7 for his birth.

The James missing from my family was born 1834-7 in Tennessee but was
raised in Georgia. The family
moved there ca. 1842. His father was born in NC. So do I have enough
proof ? Thanks.

I would say that your evidence is very strong. There is seldom any such
thing as slam-dunk proof when you're dealing with records that old.
This is one case where, if there are males with direct descent from the

apparent 2 Jameses, y chromosome DNA analysis would provide a large bit of
help. It will at least show that they have a common male ancestor.
Lesley Robertson

Sir Creep

Re: Enough Proof ?

Legg inn av Sir Creep » 09 jan 2008 16:40:08

On Jan 8, 8:47 am, Christopher Jahn <xj...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Census data can never be *proof*; not only do they not require
documentation, you have no way of knowing who provided the
information.  Was this person REALLY James Lail, or someone
pretending to be him?

You learn something new every day. Today I learned that identity
theft was rampant in 1865-70.

Hugh Watkins

Re: Enough Proof ?

Legg inn av Hugh Watkins » 09 jan 2008 20:41:54

Sir Creep wrote:
On Jan 8, 8:47 am, Christopher Jahn <xj...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Census data can never be *proof*; not only do they not require
documentation, you have no way of knowing who provided the
information. Was this person REALLY James Lail, or someone
pretending to be him?

You learn something new every day. Today I learned that identity
theft was rampant in 1865-70.


just read the Tichbourne case

or
Jan Bondeson - The Great Pretenders: The True Stories Behind Famous
Historical Mysteries

Hugh W

Christopher Jahn

Re: Enough Proof ?

Legg inn av Christopher Jahn » 10 jan 2008 02:01:05

Sir Creep <sircreep@hotmail.com> wrote in news:d9a46f7f-e55b-
43a2-ac1a-9eb8719c2d48@j20g2000hsi.googlegroups.com:

On Jan 8, 8:47 am, Christopher Jahn <xj...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Census data can never be *proof*; not only do they not require
documentation, you have no way of knowing who provided the
information.  Was this person REALLY James Lail, or someone
pretending to be him?

You learn something new every day. Today I learned that
identity theft was rampant in 1865-70.

THink about it; no photographs, no computer look-ups, no social
security database, birth certificates weren't mandatory; To
assume a new identity, all you had to do was go somewhere where
no one knew you or the guy you were pretending to be.

Photo IDs only became common in the last 25 years. It's only in
the last ten to fifteen years that criminal records have been
widely available on the web.

There's nothing new under the sun.

I'll bet you didn't know that electric cars outnumbered gasoline-
burning cars a hundred years ago.


--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://soflatheatre.blogspot.com/

Do not speak about Time, until you have spoken to him.

JDLail

Re: Enough Proof ?

Legg inn av JDLail » 14 jan 2008 19:06:12

On Jan 8, 8:47 am, Christopher Jahn <xj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
JDLail <JDL...@yahoo.com> wrote innews:198d97ae-d859-44a5-9b85-e10ac512bb13@m77g2000hsc.googlegroup
s.com:



I have a case where one of my family (Confederate) from
Georgia was captured in the Civil War, taken to
Fort Columbus (NY City area), took the oath of allegiance, and
was released in Sept 1863. He never came
home. His four children were scattered between the paternal
grandparents and the mother.

However a man with his name shows up in Northern New Jersey
within months of his 1863 release . He
married and remained in Morris Co. NJ until his death in 1926.
So its reasonable to suspect that these
are the same guy. The surname here (Lail) was exceedingly rare
at that point in time and the given name
(James) had never been used before in the family,

This James appeared in 5 New Jersey census records from
1870-1920. In all cases he lists his birthplace
as Georgia. In all cases but one he lists his fathers
birthplace as Georgia as well. The exception being
1920 when he gave it as North Carolina. And finally In all
cases but one he gives a birth year ca. 1846-7.
The exception being 1880 when he gave 1836-7 for his birth.

The James missing from my family was born 1834-7 in Tennessee
but was raised in Georgia. The family
moved there ca. 1842. His father was born in NC. So do I have
enough proof ? Thanks.

Census data can never be *proof*; not only do they not require
documentation, you have no way of knowing who provided the
information. Was this person REALLY James Lail, or someone
pretending to be him? The census taker wouldn't know; they may
not even have ever talked to him. Neighbors often provide the
information, and they don't always know.

While I think this is probably your guy, you need corroborating
evidence to have "proof." What you have now is only evidence.
But knowing where he was living, you know where to concentrate
you efforts for more evidence.


As to proof: The widow of the James Lail in Georgia received public
assistance because her husband was reported as killed at Morris
Island SC in Aug 1863. His unit on that documentation was SC 1st
Reg Co. H.

The James Lail who was captured was also from SC 1st Reg Co.
H. and was captured at Morris Island SC in Jul 1863.

So the guy who was released in Sept 1863 is the same as the
guy from Georgia. The question is whether he is the same as the
guy in New Jersey. So far the consensus seems to be that I
need a little more proof

JDLail

Re: Enough Proof ?

Legg inn av JDLail » 22 jan 2008 19:27:48

On Jan 21, 4:58 pm, Joy Weaver <joywe...@verizon.net> wrote:
Why not seek the 1926 death cert. for the man who died in NJ? That should
(hopefully) give his parents' names so you can match him to the man from GA.

Because NJ is anal about releasing Death Certificates to non
immediate
family (which I am not).

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