Cousins Names
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Neil Dowie
Cousins Names
I am trying to work out the possible relationships between families with the
same surname who lived comtemporarily in the same parish. Location is Fife,
Scotland. Date c 1770.
Would it be common or unlikely that brothers would name there own children
with the same names?
For instance: would two brothers - say William & George each name a son
after there own father William ? - or would the on going close geographical
home locations make it more likely that in such circumstances all the
children born to William & George would have different names?
Please let me know your thoughts or examples from your own ancestry.
For those researching Scottish Ancestry I am particularly interested in
early Dowie's and maintain my own geneological website at http://www.dowie.org
Thank you
Neil
same surname who lived comtemporarily in the same parish. Location is Fife,
Scotland. Date c 1770.
Would it be common or unlikely that brothers would name there own children
with the same names?
For instance: would two brothers - say William & George each name a son
after there own father William ? - or would the on going close geographical
home locations make it more likely that in such circumstances all the
children born to William & George would have different names?
Please let me know your thoughts or examples from your own ancestry.
For those researching Scottish Ancestry I am particularly interested in
early Dowie's and maintain my own geneological website at http://www.dowie.org
Thank you
Neil
-
Jim Elbrecht
Re: Cousins Names
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:47:53 +0100, "Neil Dowie"
<neildowie@hotmail.com> wrote:
-snip-
Can't say for Scotland, but in the US- I think it was one of my New
England surnames, but not my family [and it was after 1850 or so as I
was looking at succeeding censuses] two brothers or cousins in the
same town had 5 children. The first four of each shared the same
names. #5 was different. The only saving grace was a different birth
order for the sexes.
As children it didn't seem to make any difference. As adults, the
later same-named individual in the same town would be known as "Joe
Smith 2nd, 3rd, etc". Sometimes they were related- sometimes not.
Jim
<neildowie@hotmail.com> wrote:
-snip-
Would it be common or unlikely that brothers would name there own children
with the same names?
Can't say for Scotland, but in the US- I think it was one of my New
England surnames, but not my family [and it was after 1850 or so as I
was looking at succeeding censuses] two brothers or cousins in the
same town had 5 children. The first four of each shared the same
names. #5 was different. The only saving grace was a different birth
order for the sexes.
As children it didn't seem to make any difference. As adults, the
later same-named individual in the same town would be known as "Joe
Smith 2nd, 3rd, etc". Sometimes they were related- sometimes not.
Jim
-
Drew Lawson
Re: Cousins Names
In article <FrSdnSa0hvHYO-rbnZ2dnUVZ8tmhnZ2d@bt.com>
"Neil Dowie" <neildowie@hotmail.com> writes:
If only that were the case, then it would be a lot easier to tell
who is who. My own Scotish ancestors about that time seem to have
about the same names in every nuclear family. It's as if the law
required you to use John, James and Robert before you could try
anything else. Most of the girls are Maragret, Mary, Elizabeth or
Jeanie.
This overlap is probably a large part of why there are so many
nicknames that have no relation to given names. When the house has
4 Roberts in various generations, Rob and Bob don't go far enough
to distinguish one from another.
--
Drew Lawson | What you own is your own kingdom
| What you do is your own glory
drew@furrfu.com | What you love is your own power
| What you live is your own story
"Neil Dowie" <neildowie@hotmail.com> writes:
I am trying to work out the possible relationships between families with the
same surname who lived comtemporarily in the same parish. Location is Fife,
Scotland. Date c 1770.
Would it be common or unlikely that brothers would name there own children
with the same names?
For instance: would two brothers - say William & George each name a son
after there own father William ? - or would the on going close geographical
home locations make it more likely that in such circumstances all the
children born to William & George would have different names?
If only that were the case, then it would be a lot easier to tell
who is who. My own Scotish ancestors about that time seem to have
about the same names in every nuclear family. It's as if the law
required you to use John, James and Robert before you could try
anything else. Most of the girls are Maragret, Mary, Elizabeth or
Jeanie.
This overlap is probably a large part of why there are so many
nicknames that have no relation to given names. When the house has
4 Roberts in various generations, Rob and Bob don't go far enough
to distinguish one from another.
--
Drew Lawson | What you own is your own kingdom
| What you do is your own glory
drew@furrfu.com | What you love is your own power
| What you live is your own story
-
Alida Spry
Re: Cousins Names
"Neil Dowie" <neildowie@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:FrSdnSa0hvHYO-rbnZ2dnUVZ8tmhnZ2d@bt.com...
continued to use the same names over and over. My father was Stephen, his
uncle was Stephen, he had a cousin (born only about a week after him) who
was also named Stephen. When my brother was born, all of my dad's relatives
were telling him to name him Stephen (which he absolutely refused by the
way).
The other male names most commonly used were Theodore, Michael and John and
the female names were Mary, Ann and Katherine. Of course, I'm giving the
anglicized versions here. The true Ukrainian names do have lots of
diminutives or nicknames which helped to differentiate one from the other.
Alida
news:FrSdnSa0hvHYO-rbnZ2dnUVZ8tmhnZ2d@bt.com...
I am trying to work out the possible relationships between families with
the same surname who lived comtemporarily in the same parish. Location is
Fife, Scotland. Date c 1770.
Would it be common or unlikely that brothers would name there own children
with the same names?
For instance: would two brothers - say William & George each name a son
after there own father William ? - or would the on going close
geographical home locations make it more likely that in such circumstances
all the children born to William & George would have different names?
Please let me know your thoughts or examples from your own ancestry.
For those researching Scottish Ancestry I am particularly interested in
early Dowie's and maintain my own geneological website at http://www.dowie.org
Thank you
Neil
I'm not Scottish but in my father's family, which was Ukrainian, they
continued to use the same names over and over. My father was Stephen, his
uncle was Stephen, he had a cousin (born only about a week after him) who
was also named Stephen. When my brother was born, all of my dad's relatives
were telling him to name him Stephen (which he absolutely refused by the
way).
The other male names most commonly used were Theodore, Michael and John and
the female names were Mary, Ann and Katherine. Of course, I'm giving the
anglicized versions here. The true Ukrainian names do have lots of
diminutives or nicknames which helped to differentiate one from the other.
Alida
-
Lesley Robertson
Re: Cousins Names
"Neil Dowie" <neildowie@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:FrSdnSa0hvHYO-rbnZ2dnUVZ8tmhnZ2d@bt.com...
And here you have to be very careful. Just because they have the same
surname, that doesn't prove that they are related at all. In many cases they
are, but there's big traps waiting for those who take it for granted. In my
1 place study of a scottish parish, I have 2 families of the same, not
terribly common, surname on the same farm in the same census. Much to my
surprise, I can't find any relationship between them at all.
Like any rule, it's not 100% - there were always some people who rebelled,
and there always seems to be a child or two missing fropm the baptism
registers so that the patterns don't seem to work, but many people stuck
firmly to the rule that the first son was named for the father's father, the
second for the mother's father, then the grandfathers, etc. Girls started
with the mother's mother. Another exception I've seen was if someone died
just before a birth - the next child would be named for them out of turn.
Children might also be named after the landlord, the medics, the Minister or
(as with 2 of my great Uncles) an employer.
I know of quite a few families where not only did every brother of a family
call the eldest son for their father (resulting in 7 little James over a 10
year spread) but one family had a maternal grandfather also called James -
and that couple named both sons 1 and 2 James!
Lesley Robertson
news:FrSdnSa0hvHYO-rbnZ2dnUVZ8tmhnZ2d@bt.com...
I am trying to work out the possible relationships between families with
the same surname who lived comtemporarily in the same parish. Location is
Fife, Scotland. Date c 1770.
And here you have to be very careful. Just because they have the same
surname, that doesn't prove that they are related at all. In many cases they
are, but there's big traps waiting for those who take it for granted. In my
1 place study of a scottish parish, I have 2 families of the same, not
terribly common, surname on the same farm in the same census. Much to my
surprise, I can't find any relationship between them at all.
Would it be common or unlikely that brothers would name there own children
with the same names?
Common.
For instance: would two brothers - say William & George each name a son
after there own father William ? - or would the on going close
geographical home locations make it more likely that in such circumstances
all the children born to William & George would have different names?
Like any rule, it's not 100% - there were always some people who rebelled,
and there always seems to be a child or two missing fropm the baptism
registers so that the patterns don't seem to work, but many people stuck
firmly to the rule that the first son was named for the father's father, the
second for the mother's father, then the grandfathers, etc. Girls started
with the mother's mother. Another exception I've seen was if someone died
just before a birth - the next child would be named for them out of turn.
Children might also be named after the landlord, the medics, the Minister or
(as with 2 of my great Uncles) an employer.
I know of quite a few families where not only did every brother of a family
call the eldest son for their father (resulting in 7 little James over a 10
year spread) but one family had a maternal grandfather also called James -
and that couple named both sons 1 and 2 James!
Lesley Robertson
-
Neil Dowie
Re: Cousins Names
Great
Thanks to everyone but particularly Lesley who's explanations I'm sure many
will find useful, frustrating and just plain funny.
Neil
neildowie@hotmail.com
"Lesley Robertson" <l.a.robertson@tnw.tudelft.nl> wrote in message
news:498d1$4677edfd$83b4501d$16442@news2.tudelft.nl...
Thanks to everyone but particularly Lesley who's explanations I'm sure many
will find useful, frustrating and just plain funny.
Neil
neildowie@hotmail.com
"Lesley Robertson" <l.a.robertson@tnw.tudelft.nl> wrote in message
news:498d1$4677edfd$83b4501d$16442@news2.tudelft.nl...
"Neil Dowie" <neildowie@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:FrSdnSa0hvHYO-rbnZ2dnUVZ8tmhnZ2d@bt.com...
I am trying to work out the possible relationships between families with
the same surname who lived comtemporarily in the same parish. Location is
Fife, Scotland. Date c 1770.
And here you have to be very careful. Just because they have the same
surname, that doesn't prove that they are related at all. In many cases
they are, but there's big traps waiting for those who take it for granted.
In my 1 place study of a scottish parish, I have 2 families of the same,
not terribly common, surname on the same farm in the same census. Much to
my surprise, I can't find any relationship between them at all.
Would it be common or unlikely that brothers would name there own
children with the same names?
Common.
For instance: would two brothers - say William & George each name a son
after there own father William ? - or would the on going close
geographical home locations make it more likely that in such
circumstances all the children born to William & George would have
different names?
Like any rule, it's not 100% - there were always some people who rebelled,
and there always seems to be a child or two missing fropm the baptism
registers so that the patterns don't seem to work, but many people stuck
firmly to the rule that the first son was named for the father's father,
the second for the mother's father, then the grandfathers, etc. Girls
started with the mother's mother. Another exception I've seen was if
someone died just before a birth - the next child would be named for them
out of turn. Children might also be named after the landlord, the medics,
the Minister or (as with 2 of my great Uncles) an employer.
I know of quite a few families where not only did every brother of a
family call the eldest son for their father (resulting in 7 little James
over a 10 year spread) but one family had a maternal grandfather also
called James - and that couple named both sons 1 and 2 James!
Lesley Robertson
-
The Bensham Cunt
Re: Cousins Names
On Jun 19, 7:47 pm, "Neil Dowie" <neildo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hello Neil.
I have the middle name Mapp, which has been in the family for 8
generations since Clive of India's time. We are originally from the
Eastend of London, then Kolkata before heading west to Mumbai. I have
12 first cousins all with the middle name Mapp. It comes from my
paternal great-great-great-great-great grandfather a James Henry Mapp.
The Bensham Cunt
I am trying to work out the possible relationships between families with the
same surname who lived comtemporarily in the same parish. Location is Fife,
Scotland. Date c 1770.
Would it be common or unlikely that brothers would name there own children
with the same names?
For instance: would two brothers - say William & George each name a son
after there own father William ? - or would the on going close geographical
home locations make it more likely that in such circumstances all the
children born to William & George would have different names?
Please let me know your thoughts or examples from your own ancestry.
For those researching Scottish Ancestry I am particularly interested in
early Dowie's and maintain my own geneological website atwww.dowie.org
Thank you
Neil
Hello Neil.
I have the middle name Mapp, which has been in the family for 8
generations since Clive of India's time. We are originally from the
Eastend of London, then Kolkata before heading west to Mumbai. I have
12 first cousins all with the middle name Mapp. It comes from my
paternal great-great-great-great-great grandfather a James Henry Mapp.
The Bensham Cunt
-
Laurieb
Re: Cousins Names
On Jun 19, 5:47 am, "Neil Dowie" <neildo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Neil what a great question. I have found 5 Jonahs and 4 Jesses
"Strickland" listed in CT. My Jesse (CT born, NY lived)) has had his
history intermixed with another Jesse (CT born & lived). This was
discovered in 2004 with the end results of 30 yrs. research invalid
for a family researcher. Luckly I found his info confusing from the
beginning and took none of his info for granted as one never should
anyway.
I love a good mystery.
Laurie
Neil what a great question. I have found 5 Jonahs and 4 Jesses
"Strickland" listed in CT. My Jesse (CT born, NY lived)) has had his
history intermixed with another Jesse (CT born & lived). This was
discovered in 2004 with the end results of 30 yrs. research invalid
for a family researcher. Luckly I found his info confusing from the
beginning and took none of his info for granted as one never should
anyway.
I love a good mystery.
Laurie
I am trying to work out the possible relationships between families with the
same surname who lived comtemporarily in the same parish. Location is Fife,
Scotland. Date c 1770.
Would it be common or unlikely that brothers would name there own children
with the same names?
For instance: would two brothers - say William & George each name a son
after there own father William ? - or would the on going close geographical
home locations make it more likely that in such circumstances all the
children born to William & George would have different names?
Please let me know your thoughts or examples from your own ancestry.
For those researching Scottish Ancestry I am particularly interested in
early Dowie's and maintain my own geneological website atwww.dowie.org
Thank you
Neil
-
Gjest
Re: Cousins Names
Neil, you are aware of the Scots naming patterns - ? I have a lot of
Scots ancestors, and this pattern is often followed, or variations on
the same theme. Frequently when its not followed, a child has died.
They didn't seem to worry about using names over and over again -
unlike today, where your cousin might glare at you for naming a child
the same name as one of their kids.
M
1st Son named after Fathers Father
2nd Son named after Mothers Father
3rd Son named after Father
4th Son named after Father's oldest brother
5th Son named after 2nd oldest brother or mother's oldest brother
1st Daughter named after Mothers Mother
2nd Daughter named after Fathers Mother
3rd Daughter named after Mother
4th Daughter named after Mothers oldest sister
5th Daughter named after 2nd oldest sister or Fathers oldest sister
M.
Scots ancestors, and this pattern is often followed, or variations on
the same theme. Frequently when its not followed, a child has died.
They didn't seem to worry about using names over and over again -
unlike today, where your cousin might glare at you for naming a child
the same name as one of their kids.
M
1st Son named after Fathers Father
2nd Son named after Mothers Father
3rd Son named after Father
4th Son named after Father's oldest brother
5th Son named after 2nd oldest brother or mother's oldest brother
1st Daughter named after Mothers Mother
2nd Daughter named after Fathers Mother
3rd Daughter named after Mother
4th Daughter named after Mothers oldest sister
5th Daughter named after 2nd oldest sister or Fathers oldest sister
M.
-
Christopher Jahn
Re: Cousins Names
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org wrote in
news:1182596298.644300.175980@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com:
Interesing: I have one early 19th century family that's been a
brick wall. But the the third son is named for the father, and
the third daughter is named for the mother. If they were
following this convention, I might be able to break through the
wall. At least I have an avenue to explore.
Thanks!
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://soflatheatre.blogspot.com/
A closed mouth gathers no foot.
news:1182596298.644300.175980@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com:
Neil, you are aware of the Scots naming patterns - ? I have a
lot of Scots ancestors, and this pattern is often followed, or
variations on the same theme. Frequently when its not
followed, a child has died. They didn't seem to worry about
using names over and over again - unlike today, where your
cousin might glare at you for naming a child the same name as
one of their kids.
M
1st Son named after Fathers Father
2nd Son named after Mothers Father
3rd Son named after Father
4th Son named after Father's oldest brother
5th Son named after 2nd oldest brother or mother's oldest
brother
1st Daughter named after Mothers Mother
2nd Daughter named after Fathers Mother
3rd Daughter named after Mother
4th Daughter named after Mothers oldest sister
5th Daughter named after 2nd oldest sister or Fathers oldest
sister
M.
Interesing: I have one early 19th century family that's been a
brick wall. But the the third son is named for the father, and
the third daughter is named for the mother. If they were
following this convention, I might be able to break through the
wall. At least I have an avenue to explore.
Thanks!
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://soflatheatre.blogspot.com/
A closed mouth gathers no foot.