Is there a site where styles of tombstones can be checked to figure out when a
stone was erected? Or is there anyone on this list who is knowledgable about that?
I've posted a picture of a stone at St. George's Cemetery in Newburgh, NY under
the name Joseph Henry Weaver at Find-a-grave.com. Five adults and two infants
are listed on the stone and I'm trying to figure out when (thus by whom) it was
ordered.
Joy Weaver
clues to date tombstone placement?
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
singhals
Re: clues to date tombstone placement?
Joy Weaver wrote:
FWIW, perhaps a penny?
It's doubtful that there are that many people buried in one
grave, which makes this a marker, not a tombstone, a trivial
detail that MIGHT be important at some later date (say,
when/if a 2nd stone is found for any of the persons named on
this one).
The names are not chronological by birthdate -- if they
were, Elizabeth would be the 2nd name not the last. They
aren't alpha by given name, because Elizabeth would precede
Joseph if they were. They're not chrono by death-date,
because Elizabeth would again precede Joseph if they were.
They're not listed by relationship to Joe, because if they
were, he'd be first not next-to-last. If the stone was
erected by some descendant of the first-named person, the
names would be in kinship to her order, but that doesn't
seem to be true either.
It's interesting that Mary Weaver, the last to die, is
listed on the base of the stone. Any chance the upright is
a late-addition placed to identify Mary? That would at
least make sense of it. This would also make the
differences between the IDs you provide and the names on the
stone more reasonable. If the person placing the stone knew
only that Mary was related to all these people somehow, the
stone-cutter would put them on the stone for best-fit.
However, to answer your question, it would appear to me that
the stone is a 1940-50 era stone, based on stones in my
family cemeteries. That would fit with Mary's deathdate
(1930, if I read correctly) and be an appropriate length of
time to save up the money to buy a marker.
Cheryl
Is there a site where styles of tombstones can be checked to figure out
when a stone was erected? Or is there anyone on this list who is
knowledgable about that?
I've posted a picture of a stone at St. George's Cemetery in Newburgh,
NY under the name Joseph Henry Weaver at Find-a-grave.com. Five adults
and two infants are listed on the stone and I'm trying to figure out
when (thus by whom) it was ordered.
Joy Weaver
FWIW, perhaps a penny?
It's doubtful that there are that many people buried in one
grave, which makes this a marker, not a tombstone, a trivial
detail that MIGHT be important at some later date (say,
when/if a 2nd stone is found for any of the persons named on
this one).
The names are not chronological by birthdate -- if they
were, Elizabeth would be the 2nd name not the last. They
aren't alpha by given name, because Elizabeth would precede
Joseph if they were. They're not chrono by death-date,
because Elizabeth would again precede Joseph if they were.
They're not listed by relationship to Joe, because if they
were, he'd be first not next-to-last. If the stone was
erected by some descendant of the first-named person, the
names would be in kinship to her order, but that doesn't
seem to be true either.
It's interesting that Mary Weaver, the last to die, is
listed on the base of the stone. Any chance the upright is
a late-addition placed to identify Mary? That would at
least make sense of it. This would also make the
differences between the IDs you provide and the names on the
stone more reasonable. If the person placing the stone knew
only that Mary was related to all these people somehow, the
stone-cutter would put them on the stone for best-fit.
However, to answer your question, it would appear to me that
the stone is a 1940-50 era stone, based on stones in my
family cemeteries. That would fit with Mary's deathdate
(1930, if I read correctly) and be an appropriate length of
time to save up the money to buy a marker.
Cheryl
-
Joy Weaver
Re: clues to date tombstone placement?
Thank you, Cheryl.
I was thinking that maybe Mary (Polly) had the stone erected with all the names
of people in that plot and then one of her children added her name at the base
because it wouldn't fit on the marker.
There don't seem to be other stones for any of them in that area, though there
are a couple of flat stones sunk into the ground to its sides that might have
been fallen stones of individuals or even flat stones with the carving worn off.
The cemetery had fallen into severe disrepair and is now being restored.
There was considerable vandalism and natural weathering.
From the records of the affiliated church and from death certificates and
obits, I know that all of those family members are buried in that cemetery and
most likely in that plot. Jos. H. Weaver was listed as the owner of the plot,
probably purchased in 1893 when his mother died. (But then, there's also a
Rachel Weaver listed by the church for that plot and I haven't been able to find
any connection for her to this family and so far no stone there either. I
believe she was the wife of Alonzo Weaver from Poughkeepsie, but can't find any
relationship between this family and Alonzo).
One interesting note is that Jos. H.'s year of birth is wrong and wrong in an
odd way. There's a family Bible and various other sources that give a date in
Nov. 1862, but I found his baptismal record for March, 1862, which gives his dob
as Nov. 1861. Seems odd that whoever ordered the marker, didn't err on the side
of 1862 rather than 1860.
Another oddity is how the names appear. The mother is listed by her second
married name, the first wife by her maiden name, Joseph and the children with no
surname. Except for the second wife's name at the base, one would have no idea
that this was a Weaver family. Most markers I've seen have the surname
prominantly displayed. (Guess that's why I didn't think of this as a marker to
begin with).
Any other thoughts?
Joy
singhals wrote:
I was thinking that maybe Mary (Polly) had the stone erected with all the names
of people in that plot and then one of her children added her name at the base
because it wouldn't fit on the marker.
There don't seem to be other stones for any of them in that area, though there
are a couple of flat stones sunk into the ground to its sides that might have
been fallen stones of individuals or even flat stones with the carving worn off.
The cemetery had fallen into severe disrepair and is now being restored.
There was considerable vandalism and natural weathering.
From the records of the affiliated church and from death certificates and
obits, I know that all of those family members are buried in that cemetery and
most likely in that plot. Jos. H. Weaver was listed as the owner of the plot,
probably purchased in 1893 when his mother died. (But then, there's also a
Rachel Weaver listed by the church for that plot and I haven't been able to find
any connection for her to this family and so far no stone there either. I
believe she was the wife of Alonzo Weaver from Poughkeepsie, but can't find any
relationship between this family and Alonzo).
One interesting note is that Jos. H.'s year of birth is wrong and wrong in an
odd way. There's a family Bible and various other sources that give a date in
Nov. 1862, but I found his baptismal record for March, 1862, which gives his dob
as Nov. 1861. Seems odd that whoever ordered the marker, didn't err on the side
of 1862 rather than 1860.
Another oddity is how the names appear. The mother is listed by her second
married name, the first wife by her maiden name, Joseph and the children with no
surname. Except for the second wife's name at the base, one would have no idea
that this was a Weaver family. Most markers I've seen have the surname
prominantly displayed. (Guess that's why I didn't think of this as a marker to
begin with).
Any other thoughts?
Joy
singhals wrote:
Joy Weaver wrote:
Is there a site where styles of tombstones can be checked to figure
out when a stone was erected? Or is there anyone on this list who is
knowledgable about that?
I've posted a picture of a stone at St. George's Cemetery in Newburgh,
NY under the name Joseph Henry Weaver at Find-a-grave.com. Five
adults and two infants are listed on the stone and I'm trying to
figure out when (thus by whom) it was ordered.
Joy Weaver
FWIW, perhaps a penny?
It's doubtful that there are that many people buried in one grave, which
makes this a marker, not a tombstone, a trivial detail that MIGHT be
important at some later date (say, when/if a 2nd stone is found for any
of the persons named on this one).
The names are not chronological by birthdate -- if they were, Elizabeth
would be the 2nd name not the last. They aren't alpha by given name,
because Elizabeth would precede Joseph if they were. They're not chrono
by death-date, because Elizabeth would again precede Joseph if they
were. They're not listed by relationship to Joe, because if they were,
he'd be first not next-to-last. If the stone was erected by some
descendant of the first-named person, the names would be in kinship to
her order, but that doesn't seem to be true either.
It's interesting that Mary Weaver, the last to die, is listed on the
base of the stone. Any chance the upright is a late-addition placed to
identify Mary? That would at least make sense of it. This would also
make the differences between the IDs you provide and the names on the
stone more reasonable. If the person placing the stone knew only that
Mary was related to all these people somehow, the stone-cutter would put
them on the stone for best-fit.
However, to answer your question, it would appear to me that the stone
is a 1940-50 era stone, based on stones in my family cemeteries. That
would fit with Mary's deathdate (1930, if I read correctly) and be an
appropriate length of time to save up the money to buy a marker.
Cheryl
-
Michael Kenefick
Re: clues to date tombstone placement?
Hello Joy,
I just wanted to confirm what the stone shows below. Also, is that
"outcrop" at the top a part of this stone or is it a stone in the back
ground? If it is from this stone then maybe one of those vandals knocked a
"cross" or other such marker, that listed it as a Weaver site, off.
Have you found any census records? If not, ask here. Many SKSs have
helped me in the past.
I tried to Google tombstone symbols. I got way to many hits to be
helpful. I found the arrows mean mortality. I did not find much on
triangles (delta???) with a line. Celtic crosses(?), were they Irish?
By the by, have any Barbour County (mostly), WV (VA) Weavers in the
family 1820-1900 (mostly)? My GM is a Velma Ruth Weaver.
Mary Craff (Graff?) (Appears to be weathered more than the others!?)
1828 - 1892
Josephine Grant (Crant?)
1863 - 1898
John J. Weaver
1900 - 1900
Gertrude M.
1903 - 1904
Joseph H.
1860 - 1923
Elizabeth Shaw
1842 - 1907
Mary Weaver (on the base)
1870 - 1939
Mike in Ohio
"Joy Weaver" <joyweave@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:bB2Xh.4476$sb.4240@trndny05...
knowledgable about that? I've posted a picture of a stone at St. George's
Cemetery in Newburgh, NY under the name Joseph Henry Weaver at
Find-a-grave.com. Five adults and two infants are listed on the stone and
I'm trying to figure out when (thus by whom) it was ordered.
I just wanted to confirm what the stone shows below. Also, is that
"outcrop" at the top a part of this stone or is it a stone in the back
ground? If it is from this stone then maybe one of those vandals knocked a
"cross" or other such marker, that listed it as a Weaver site, off.
Have you found any census records? If not, ask here. Many SKSs have
helped me in the past.
I tried to Google tombstone symbols. I got way to many hits to be
helpful. I found the arrows mean mortality. I did not find much on
triangles (delta???) with a line. Celtic crosses(?), were they Irish?
By the by, have any Barbour County (mostly), WV (VA) Weavers in the
family 1820-1900 (mostly)? My GM is a Velma Ruth Weaver.
Mary Craff (Graff?) (Appears to be weathered more than the others!?)
1828 - 1892
Josephine Grant (Crant?)
1863 - 1898
John J. Weaver
1900 - 1900
Gertrude M.
1903 - 1904
Joseph H.
1860 - 1923
Elizabeth Shaw
1842 - 1907
Mary Weaver (on the base)
1870 - 1939
Mike in Ohio
"Joy Weaver" <joyweave@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:bB2Xh.4476$sb.4240@trndny05...
Is there a site where styles of tombstones can be checked to figure out
when a stone was erected? Or is there anyone on this list who is
knowledgable about that? I've posted a picture of a stone at St. George's
Cemetery in Newburgh, NY under the name Joseph Henry Weaver at
Find-a-grave.com. Five adults and two infants are listed on the stone and
I'm trying to figure out when (thus by whom) it was ordered.
Joy Weaver
-
singhals
Re: clues to date tombstone placement?
Other stones need not _be_ in the "area" and in fact are
more likely not to be ... otherwise there'd be little point
to this one.
Since there are factual errors on the stone, then IMO it
raises the probability that someone other than a direct
descendant had it erected; a close second to that would be
that the youngest child of someone on it did (and that would
be the person most likely to not-know the full story and to
think it appropriate that a man's two mothers-in-law share a
stone with him and his two wives).
The name oddity strengthens the hypothesis that this stone
was erected some years after the deaths and by someone not
completely conversant with the relationships.
Quality and Quantity time spent reading the newspaper from
the area of the grave(s) beginning with the most-recent
death on the stone might turn up something, particularly if
the town involved is a small country town with nothing much
going on; someone erecting an expensive marker might well
get the front page but would certainly get more than two
lines of coverage.
Cheryl
Joy Weaver wrote:
more likely not to be ... otherwise there'd be little point
to this one.
Since there are factual errors on the stone, then IMO it
raises the probability that someone other than a direct
descendant had it erected; a close second to that would be
that the youngest child of someone on it did (and that would
be the person most likely to not-know the full story and to
think it appropriate that a man's two mothers-in-law share a
stone with him and his two wives).
The name oddity strengthens the hypothesis that this stone
was erected some years after the deaths and by someone not
completely conversant with the relationships.
Quality and Quantity time spent reading the newspaper from
the area of the grave(s) beginning with the most-recent
death on the stone might turn up something, particularly if
the town involved is a small country town with nothing much
going on; someone erecting an expensive marker might well
get the front page but would certainly get more than two
lines of coverage.
Cheryl
Joy Weaver wrote:
Thank you, Cheryl.
I was thinking that maybe Mary (Polly) had the stone erected with all
the names of people in that plot and then one of her children added her
name at the base because it wouldn't fit on the marker.
There don't seem to be other stones for any of them in that area, though
there are a couple of flat stones sunk into the ground to its sides that
might have been fallen stones of individuals or even flat stones with
the carving worn off. The cemetery had fallen into severe disrepair and
is now being restored. There was considerable vandalism and natural
weathering.
From the records of the affiliated church and from death certificates
and obits, I know that all of those family members are buried in that
cemetery and most likely in that plot. Jos. H. Weaver was listed as the
owner of the plot, probably purchased in 1893 when his mother died.
(But then, there's also a Rachel Weaver listed by the church for that
plot and I haven't been able to find any connection for her to this
family and so far no stone there either. I believe she was the wife of
Alonzo Weaver from Poughkeepsie, but can't find any relationship between
this family and Alonzo).
One interesting note is that Jos. H.'s year of birth is wrong and wrong
in an odd way. There's a family Bible and various other sources that
give a date in Nov. 1862, but I found his baptismal record for March,
1862, which gives his dob as Nov. 1861. Seems odd that whoever ordered
the marker, didn't err on the side of 1862 rather than 1860.
Another oddity is how the names appear. The mother is listed by her
second married name, the first wife by her maiden name, Joseph and the
children with no surname. Except for the second wife's name at the
base, one would have no idea that this was a Weaver family. Most markers
I've seen have the surname prominantly displayed. (Guess that's why I
didn't think of this as a marker to begin with).
Any other thoughts?
Joy
singhals wrote:
Joy Weaver wrote:
Is there a site where styles of tombstones can be checked to figure
out when a stone was erected? Or is there anyone on this list who is
knowledgable about that?
I've posted a picture of a stone at St. George's Cemetery in
Newburgh, NY under the name Joseph Henry Weaver at Find-a-grave.com.
Five adults and two infants are listed on the stone and I'm trying to
figure out when (thus by whom) it was ordered.
Joy Weaver
FWIW, perhaps a penny?
It's doubtful that there are that many people buried in one grave,
which makes this a marker, not a tombstone, a trivial detail that
MIGHT be important at some later date (say, when/if a 2nd stone is
found for any of the persons named on this one).
The names are not chronological by birthdate -- if they were,
Elizabeth would be the 2nd name not the last. They aren't alpha by
given name, because Elizabeth would precede Joseph if they were.
They're not chrono by death-date, because Elizabeth would again
precede Joseph if they were. They're not listed by relationship to
Joe, because if they were, he'd be first not next-to-last. If the
stone was erected by some descendant of the first-named person, the
names would be in kinship to her order, but that doesn't seem to be
true either.
It's interesting that Mary Weaver, the last to die, is listed on the
base of the stone. Any chance the upright is a late-addition placed
to identify Mary? That would at least make sense of it. This would
also make the differences between the IDs you provide and the names on
the stone more reasonable. If the person placing the stone knew only
that Mary was related to all these people somehow, the stone-cutter
would put them on the stone for best-fit.
However, to answer your question, it would appear to me that the stone
is a 1940-50 era stone, based on stones in my family cemeteries. That
would fit with Mary's deathdate (1930, if I read correctly) and be an
appropriate length of time to save up the money to buy a marker.
Cheryl
-
Joy Weaver
Re: clues to date tombstone placement?
Hi Cheryl.
Thank you for the further thoughts.
The town is actually a small city, Newburgh, NY. I think I've got about as much
about the people from documents and newspapers as I'm going to find... but then
you never know.
The relationships on the stone are actually the plot owner's mother, first and
second wives and second mother-in-law, plus two infant children.
St. George’s Cemetery, Newburgh, NY, plot # 578 owned by Joseph H. Weaver.
Names appearing on church office file card for this plot:
Rachel R. Weaver, died June 15, 1895 age 63 [This may be an error. She seems to
be the wife of Alonzo Weaver of Poughkeepsie, who appears not to be related.]
John J. Weaver, died Oct. 10, 1900 son age 4 mo. 12 da. [child]
Gertrude May Weaver, died Feb. 7, 1904 daughter age 5 mo. 25 da. [child]
Elizabeth Shaw, died Nov. 16, 1907 age 65 [2nd wife's mother]
Mary [Polly Shaw] Weaver, died April 12, 1939 age 66 yrs. 4 mo. 15 da. [second wife]
Names not on card, but listed on death certificates as buried at St. George's
Cem.: Mary Groff, died Nov. 6, 1893 age 55. [his mother]
Catherine Josephine Eliza Grant Weaver, died Feb. 9, 1898 [his 1st wife]
Joseph H. Weaver, died May 5, 1923 age 60 [himself]
The woman I contacted at the church office said she thought that probably the
last three were not members of the church. (Note that Jos., himself, is not on
the card.
Well, anyway, thanks again. I do think you are right about the marker being
erected by a younger child who knew less about the family history. Possibly
there were some earlier stones that were removed when the marker was erected. Or
possibly the person who ordered it felt bad that there weren't stones for the
early burials.
I hope I've taken care of some of the confusion by posting the correct names on
Find-a-Grave. (Whether Mary's 2nd husband was Graff or Groff is still unknown.
Handwritten documents are inconclusive. Rachel remains a mystery as to how she
might be related, but she's not on the marker and there's no single stone for
her either, so I didn't include her).
Joy
singhals wrote:
Thank you for the further thoughts.
The town is actually a small city, Newburgh, NY. I think I've got about as much
about the people from documents and newspapers as I'm going to find... but then
you never know.
The relationships on the stone are actually the plot owner's mother, first and
second wives and second mother-in-law, plus two infant children.
St. George’s Cemetery, Newburgh, NY, plot # 578 owned by Joseph H. Weaver.
Names appearing on church office file card for this plot:
Rachel R. Weaver, died June 15, 1895 age 63 [This may be an error. She seems to
be the wife of Alonzo Weaver of Poughkeepsie, who appears not to be related.]
John J. Weaver, died Oct. 10, 1900 son age 4 mo. 12 da. [child]
Gertrude May Weaver, died Feb. 7, 1904 daughter age 5 mo. 25 da. [child]
Elizabeth Shaw, died Nov. 16, 1907 age 65 [2nd wife's mother]
Mary [Polly Shaw] Weaver, died April 12, 1939 age 66 yrs. 4 mo. 15 da. [second wife]
Names not on card, but listed on death certificates as buried at St. George's
Cem.: Mary Groff, died Nov. 6, 1893 age 55. [his mother]
Catherine Josephine Eliza Grant Weaver, died Feb. 9, 1898 [his 1st wife]
Joseph H. Weaver, died May 5, 1923 age 60 [himself]
The woman I contacted at the church office said she thought that probably the
last three were not members of the church. (Note that Jos., himself, is not on
the card.
Well, anyway, thanks again. I do think you are right about the marker being
erected by a younger child who knew less about the family history. Possibly
there were some earlier stones that were removed when the marker was erected. Or
possibly the person who ordered it felt bad that there weren't stones for the
early burials.
I hope I've taken care of some of the confusion by posting the correct names on
Find-a-Grave. (Whether Mary's 2nd husband was Graff or Groff is still unknown.
Handwritten documents are inconclusive. Rachel remains a mystery as to how she
might be related, but she's not on the marker and there's no single stone for
her either, so I didn't include her).
Joy
singhals wrote:
Other stones need not _be_ in the "area" and in fact are more likely not
to be ... otherwise there'd be little point to this one.
Since there are factual errors on the stone, then IMO it raises the
probability that someone other than a direct descendant had it erected;
a close second to that would be that the youngest child of someone on it
did (and that would be the person most likely to not-know the full story
and to think it appropriate that a man's two mothers-in-law share a
stone with him and his two wives).
The name oddity strengthens the hypothesis that this stone was erected
some years after the deaths and by someone not completely conversant
with the relationships.
Quality and Quantity time spent reading the newspaper from the area of
the grave(s) beginning with the most-recent death on the stone might
turn up something, particularly if the town involved is a small country
town with nothing much going on; someone erecting an expensive marker
might well get the front page but would certainly get more than two
lines of coverage.
Cheryl
-
Joy Weaver
Re: clues to date tombstone placement?
Michael,
I'm not sure at what point you looked at the Find-a-grave site. I fixed my
information about what the names should be yesterday.
You're right. It does look like something was once attached to the top of the
marker. Maybe it was where the name "Weaver" was-- though it looks too narrow
for that.
The cemetery is public, but owned by an Episcopal Church, so Celtic symbols seem
unlikely. Mary (Brown/ Weaver) Graff was Irish, probably Protestant. Joseph
H., her son, was raised by her sister and the sister's Scottish Presbyterian
husband, but had been baptised Anglican (long story). The second wife was
English/ Anglican.
I've found census records from 1860 onward in New York, including the 5-year
ones from NY State, and from 1851 onward from Canada, where Joseph was raised
and some of Mary's family lived earlier. There are a few I haven't been able to
find yet, though.
I don't know of any relatives from WV or VA, but the great mystery brick wall in
the family is Joseph's father who disappeared in the Civil War. One
grandaughter, when interviewed in her 80s, claimed that he fought for the South.
But all I've found so far is that he married in Orange Co., NY in 1858 and was
listed in the 1860 census as born in Germany.
So, I guess the answer is: I don't think so, but I don't know for sure.
Joy
Michael Kenefick wrote:
I'm not sure at what point you looked at the Find-a-grave site. I fixed my
information about what the names should be yesterday.
You're right. It does look like something was once attached to the top of the
marker. Maybe it was where the name "Weaver" was-- though it looks too narrow
for that.
The cemetery is public, but owned by an Episcopal Church, so Celtic symbols seem
unlikely. Mary (Brown/ Weaver) Graff was Irish, probably Protestant. Joseph
H., her son, was raised by her sister and the sister's Scottish Presbyterian
husband, but had been baptised Anglican (long story). The second wife was
English/ Anglican.
I've found census records from 1860 onward in New York, including the 5-year
ones from NY State, and from 1851 onward from Canada, where Joseph was raised
and some of Mary's family lived earlier. There are a few I haven't been able to
find yet, though.
I don't know of any relatives from WV or VA, but the great mystery brick wall in
the family is Joseph's father who disappeared in the Civil War. One
grandaughter, when interviewed in her 80s, claimed that he fought for the South.
But all I've found so far is that he married in Orange Co., NY in 1858 and was
listed in the 1860 census as born in Germany.
So, I guess the answer is: I don't think so, but I don't know for sure.
Joy
Michael Kenefick wrote:
Hello Joy,
I just wanted to confirm what the stone shows below. Also, is that
"outcrop" at the top a part of this stone or is it a stone in the back
ground? If it is from this stone then maybe one of those vandals knocked a
"cross" or other such marker, that listed it as a Weaver site, off.
Have you found any census records? If not, ask here. Many SKSs have
helped me in the past.
I tried to Google tombstone symbols. I got way to many hits to be
helpful. I found the arrows mean mortality. I did not find much on
triangles (delta???) with a line. Celtic crosses(?), were they Irish?
By the by, have any Barbour County (mostly), WV (VA) Weavers in the
family 1820-1900 (mostly)? My GM is a Velma Ruth Weaver.
Mary Craff (Graff?) (Appears to be weathered more than the others!?)
1828 - 1892
Josephine Grant (Crant?)
1863 - 1898
John J. Weaver
1900 - 1900
Gertrude M.
1903 - 1904
Joseph H.
1860 - 1923
Elizabeth Shaw
1842 - 1907
Mary Weaver (on the base)
1870 - 1939
Mike in Ohio
"Joy Weaver" <joyweave@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:bB2Xh.4476$sb.4240@trndny05...
Is there a site where styles of tombstones can be checked to figure out
when a stone was erected? Or is there anyone on this list who is
knowledgable about that? I've posted a picture of a stone at St. George's
Cemetery in Newburgh, NY under the name Joseph Henry Weaver at
Find-a-grave.com. Five adults and two infants are listed on the stone and
I'm trying to figure out when (thus by whom) it was ordered.
Joy Weaver