[Fwd: Re: DNA Research Questions?]

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Hugh Watkins

[Fwd: Re: DNA Research Questions?]

Legg inn av Hugh Watkins » 03 jan 2007 11:24:25

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: DNA Research Questions?
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 17:18:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Hugh Watkins <hugh.watkins@gmail.com>
Organization: http://www.linkpendium.com/ | The definitive directory to
genealogical resources
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.methods
References: <du4olf$jan$1@askin-17.linkpendium.com>


[ Hugh and all, I apologize. Hugh submitted this post on 02 Mar 06,
and it looks like my mail handling software ate it. I just found
the post, and I'm approving it 10 months late ... - Mod ]


JYoung6180@aol.com wrote:

While we are discussing DNA issues on this list I'd like to ask
those who know more about DNA research than I do what they think of
this...
=

On another list I was doing a lookup in church records and found
info the original poster was looking for. She claimed that the
family was English but all the sons had married German wives (this
was in the early to mid 1700s) in Pennsylvania. She claimed the
wives insisted the husbands use German spellings for their names and
name the children German given names. All of the records are in
German Lutheran and Moravian churches.
=

She says that earlier researchers for this family stated that this
"English" family was in America for three generations (although no
one can really produce any conclusive records) and that the German
wives and German Lutheran ministers are the reason the names all
appear as German. This makes no sense to me. She lists the
following as further evidence:
=

1) one of the men was a Loyalist during the Revolution--which she
feels indicates strong ties to the Crown of England.

American Revolutionary War (1776-1783),
http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page1.asp

For all that, the Hanoverian period was remarkably stable, not least
because of the longevity of its kings. From 1714 through to 1837,
there were only five monarchs, one of whom, George III, remains the
longest reigning king in British History.

they came from Hanover in Germany

George III was born on 4 June 1738 in London, the eldest son of
Frederick, Prince of Wales, and Princess Augusta of Saxe-Gotha.

He became heir to the throne on the death of his father in 1751,
succeeding his grandfather, George II, in 1760. He was the third
Hanoverian monarch and the first one to be born in England and to
use English as his first language.



(But not all
Germans supported the Patriot cause.)
2) one man's will was written in English and English name spellings
were used--although the signature of the man was an X meaning he
didn't do the writing for the will himself.
=

And #3...she claims the ultimate proof that the family was English
is that nine men have had Y DNA testing proving they all descend
from the same common ancestor who died in 1760 (the one with the
will noted in #2 above). This is their brick wall ancestor. Now
I'll buy that part so far, but then she goes on to say that the DNA
testing PROVES the family is English and not German because they all
were from a Haplogroup which is ONLY English!

the english came from Saxony in north Germany

they spoken saxon (low german) until the norman conquest added a
french speaking upper class



This is the part that boggles my mind. How on earth is it possible
to claim that someone is English and not German by means of DNA? I
would think there was much early "traffic" back and forth between
what is now Germany (and the rest of mainland Western Europe) and
England. So how can a "Western European" Haplogroup PROVE beyond
doubt that a line was English and not German? The specific
Haplogroup is: R1b1.
=

I think the reason these researchers are staring at a long-standing
brick wall is the fact that they are dead set on looking for an
English ancestor and not a German one. They even used as proof the
fact that one son was named Aaron =


biblical name
or german jewish at that time
eg
ETTLINGER, Jakob Aaron, Rabbiner und theologischer Schriftsteller, * 17. =

Marz 1798 in Karlsruhe, gest. 7. Dezember 1871

playing with stammbaum (trees) on german site:de)

could be converts to christianity


and claimed no German would have
named a son Aaron--but then an earlier record turned up and showed
this same son listed as Ehrhard--so as far as I'm concerned Aaron
was just an Anglicized version of Ehrhard.
=

Thoughts on the DNA question above would be appreciated. Thanks!

dna can confirm or deny traditional research
but not replace it

Hugh W

Hugh Watkins <hugh.watkins@gmail.com>


--

a wonderful artist in Denmark
http://www.ingerlisekristoffersen.dk/

Beta blogger
http://snaps4.blogspot.com/ photographs and walks

old blogger GENEALOGE
http://hughw36.blogspot.com/ MAIN BLOG

Graeme Wall

Re: [Fwd: Re: DNA Research Questions?]

Legg inn av Graeme Wall » 03 jan 2007 11:45:35

In message <501eipF1dtdbmU1@mid.individual.net>
Hugh Watkins <hugh.watkins@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]
For all that, the Hanoverian period was remarkably stable, not least
because of the longevity of its kings. From 1714 through to 1837,
there were only five monarchs, one of whom, George III, remains the
longest reigning king in British History.

they came from Hanover in Germany

[snip]


Well they got that wrong, the Hanoverian period was 1714-1902 and involved 6
Monarchs not 5.

--
Graeme Wall

My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>

Ron Head

Re: [Fwd: Re: DNA Research Questions?]

Legg inn av Ron Head » 03 jan 2007 21:02:17

"Graeme Wall" <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:32d5b9f4e%Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk...

"Well they got that wrong, the Hanoverian period was 1714-1902 and involved
6 Monarchs not 5."

Only until 1901, I believe--Edward VII became king in that year, did he not?

Huntersglenn

Re: [Fwd: Re: DNA Research Questions?]

Legg inn av Huntersglenn » 03 jan 2007 21:16:20

Hugh Watkins wrote:

And #3...she claims the ultimate proof that the family was English
is that nine men have had Y DNA testing proving they all descend
from the same common ancestor who died in 1760 (the one with the
will noted in #2 above). This is their brick wall ancestor. Now
I'll buy that part so far, but then she goes on to say that the DNA
testing PROVES the family is English and not German because they all
were from a Haplogroup which is ONLY English!


the english came from Saxony in north Germany

they spoken saxon (low german) until the norman conquest added a
french speaking upper class

Not quite true. The Angles and Saxons came over from Europe, but not

all of the people presently in England at that time intermarried with
them. Wales and Cornwall have large Celtic populations to this day, and
there are places in England where you can still find people who are of
Celtic descent and who do not have any Germanic blood at all (and you
still have parts of France that have people with Celtic blood). You
also have some parts of Scotland that are populated by people who have a
mixture of Celtic and Norse ancestors, due to Viking raids and such.

Now, it could be that this Haplogroup is Celtic, but that's not the same
as being English, and the last I heard, they main Celtic group that they
were able to identify was one from Ireland, not England (involving
descent from a particular Irish king).

Cathy

MikeS

Re: [Fwd: Re: DNA Research Questions?]

Legg inn av MikeS » 03 jan 2007 22:10:54

"Huntersglenn" <huntersglenn@cox.net> wrote in message
news:M7Umh.7458$NI1.1651@newsfe15.lga...
Not quite true. The Angles and Saxons came over from Europe, but not all
of the people presently in England at that time intermarried with them.
Wales and Cornwall have large Celtic populations to this day, and there
are places in England where you can still find people who are of Celtic
descent and who do not have any Germanic blood at all (and you still have
parts of France that have people with Celtic blood). You also have some
parts of Scotland that are populated by people who have a mixture of
Celtic and Norse ancestors, due to Viking raids and such.

See the article at this site which is interesting about the Myths of British
Ancestry.
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/arti ... hp?id=7817

In the alternative, query on Myths of British Ancestry and you will find
multiple articles addressing the issue.

Mike

Robert Melson

Re: [Fwd: Re: DNA Research Questions?]

Legg inn av Robert Melson » 04 jan 2007 00:56:24

In article <459c1bd1$0$17002$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
"MikeS" <archangel@heaven.com> writes:
"Huntersglenn" <huntersglenn@cox.net> wrote in message
news:M7Umh.7458$NI1.1651@newsfe15.lga...
Not quite true. The Angles and Saxons came over from Europe, but not all
of the people presently in England at that time intermarried with them.
Wales and Cornwall have large Celtic populations to this day, and there
are places in England where you can still find people who are of Celtic
descent and who do not have any Germanic blood at all (and you still have
parts of France that have people with Celtic blood). You also have some
parts of Scotland that are populated by people who have a mixture of
Celtic and Norse ancestors, due to Viking raids and such.

See the article at this site which is interesting about the Myths of British
Ancestry.
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/arti ... hp?id=7817

In the alternative, query on Myths of British Ancestry and you will find
multiple articles addressing the issue.

Mike



Personally, I much prefer Richard Armor's "1066 and All That".
While not what one would consider accurate - deliberately so -
it makes English history _much_ more enjoyable. Dunno if
it's still in print, but you might want to look it up.

Scholarly Ol' Bob

--
Robert G. Melson | Rio Grande MicroSolutions | El Paso, Texas
-----
"People unfit for freedom---who cannot do much with it---are
hungry for power." ---Eric Hoffer

Graeme Wall

Re: [Fwd: Re: DNA Research Questions?]

Legg inn av Graeme Wall » 04 jan 2007 00:59:56

In message <7456c$459c0bf5$18ec42f1$4283@KNOLOGY.NET>
"Ron Head" <ronhead@knology.net> wrote:

"Graeme Wall" <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:32d5b9f4e%Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk...

"Well they got that wrong, the Hanoverian period was 1714-1902 and
involved 6 Monarchs not 5."

Only until 1901, I believe--Edward VII became king in that year, did he
not?


Oops. you are quite right. The Coronation was in 1902.

--
Graeme Wall

My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>

Graeme Wall

Re: [Fwd: Re: DNA Research Questions?]

Legg inn av Graeme Wall » 04 jan 2007 08:37:07

In message <IoXmh.10358$X72.3850@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>
melsonr@aragorn.rgmhome.net (Robert Melson) wrote:

[snip]
Personally, I much prefer Richard Armor's "1066 and All That".
While not what one would consider accurate - deliberately so -
it makes English history _much_ more enjoyable. Dunno if
it's still in print, but you might want to look it up.


Who is Richard Armor? My copy is by Sellar & Yateman.

--
Graeme Wall

My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>

Robert Melson

Re: [Fwd: Re: DNA Research Questions?]

Legg inn av Robert Melson » 04 jan 2007 19:12:18

In article <b4a1cd9f4e%Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk>,
Graeme Wall <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> writes:
Who is Richard Armor? My copy is by Sellar & Yateman.


Reply by email. Anybody else interested, contact me via email.

Bob Melson


--
Robert G. Melson | Rio Grande MicroSolutions | El Paso, Texas
-----
"People unfit for freedom---who cannot do much with it---are
hungry for power." ---Eric Hoffer

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