Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

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Johnoh103

Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Johnoh103 » 12 apr 2005 23:03:27

As I understand the problem of the calendar before 1752, when the
switch was made to the Julian, the year began on March 25. I have a
microcopy of an obit from a newspaper, "The Boston Gazette or Weekly
Journal," from the issue dated January 19, 1748 which indicates John
Dennie died one week previously. I also have copies of his probate
records from Suffolk County, Mass. which begin on February 9, 1747.
From other evidence I'm reasonably certain this is the same man. Is
it possible that the newspaper was already using the Julian calendar,

some years before its official adoption? (I'm listing his d.o.d in my
file as 12 Jan. 1747/48)

Thanks for taking the time to read my post,
John Dennie

Christopher Jahn

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Christopher Jahn » 12 apr 2005 23:48:49

"Johnoh103" <blycrtr@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1113343407.927182.168200
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

As I understand the problem of the calendar before 1752, when the
switch was made to the Julian, the year began on March 25. I have a
microcopy of an obit from a newspaper, "The Boston Gazette or Weekly
Journal," from the issue dated January 19, 1748 which indicates John
Dennie died one week previously. I also have copies of his probate
records from Suffolk County, Mass. which begin on February 9, 1747.
From other evidence I'm reasonably certain this is the same man. Is
it possible that the newspaper was already using the Julian calendar,
some years before its official adoption? (I'm listing his d.o.d in my
file as 12 Jan. 1747/48)

Thanks for taking the time to read my post,
John Dennie



The calendar only jumped 12 days, so the date on the newspaper has
nothing to do with which calender they were using; that gap is 11 months!

It sounds like one of your sources is off by a year. Do you have the
originals of everything, or transcriptions?

--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html

If you can read this, you're in range.

Johnoh103

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Johnoh103 » 13 apr 2005 03:16:50

Not transcriptions. Newspaper is from microfilm of original at NYPL.
Copied both the front page and the interior page with the obit.
Probates are from the LDS microfilm of the probate packet at Suffolk
County Mass. Probate Court. My understanding of Gregorian calendar
system comes from pp. 41-43 of "The Researcher's Guide to American
Genealogy" by Val D. Greenwood .Always possible these were two
different men with the same name, but I don't think so. Thanks for
taking the time to respond.

John Dennie

Johnoh103

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Johnoh103 » 13 apr 2005 03:20:37

I think I said it backwards in my two previous posts. I said Gregorian
to Julian, when it was the other way around.
I forgot to engage my rusty brain again.

John Dennie

Christopher Jahn

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Christopher Jahn » 13 apr 2005 04:57:24

"Johnoh103" <blycrtr@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1113358610.780449.126990
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Not transcriptions. Newspaper is from microfilm of original at NYPL.
Copied both the front page and the interior page with the obit.
Probates are from the LDS microfilm of the probate packet at Suffolk
County Mass. Probate Court. My understanding of Gregorian calendar
system comes from pp. 41-43 of "The Researcher's Guide to American
Genealogy" by Val D. Greenwood .Always possible these were two
different men with the same name, but I don't think so. Thanks for
taking the time to respond.

No problem. As I said, the difference in the dates simply can't be a
matter of using Gregorian rather than Julien; the difference is too
great.

It really is a strange discrepancy; you'd expect the probate to be dated
well after the obituary, and not appear a year earlier.

BTW, the calendar in the US went into effect on September 2, 1752,
jumping us to September 14.
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astrono ... endar.html


--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html

Slang is language that takes off its coat, spits on its hands,
and goes to work

Charani

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Charani » 13 apr 2005 10:05:47

On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:57:24 -0500, Christopher Jahn wrote:

BTW, the calendar in the US went into effect on September 2, 1752,
jumping us to September 14.
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astrono ... endar.html

The same thing happened at the same time in the UK. I believe it was
global where the Julian/Gregorian calendars were used.

It caused some consternation at the time apparently, with people
wondering when they'd get the days back again and others believing
their lives had been shortened by the 12 day difference or so the
stories go :))

Charani

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Charani » 13 apr 2005 10:12:17

On 12 Apr 2005 15:03:27 -0700, Johnoh103 wrote:

As I understand the problem of the calendar before 1752, when the
switch was made to the Julian, the year began on March 25. I have a
microcopy of an obit from a newspaper, "The Boston Gazette or Weekly
Journal," from the issue dated January 19, 1748 which indicates John
Dennie died one week previously. I also have copies of his probate
records from Suffolk County, Mass. which begin on February 9, 1747.
From other evidence I'm reasonably certain this is the same man. Is
it possible that the newspaper was already using the Julian calendar,
some years before its official adoption? (I'm listing his d.o.d in my
file as 12 Jan. 1747/48)

It's quite usual to show any dates that fall between 1 January and 25
March prior to 1752 as being 1747/8 or whatever the year was.

As Christopher says, you can't have probate *before* death. One way
to check which calendar the paper was using is to look at the issues
in September 1752; but I can't honestly see them using a different
calendar to the rest of the state/country prior to an official change
especially one that was 4-5 years away.

Lutz Engelhardt

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Lutz Engelhardt » 13 apr 2005 10:28:11

BTW, the calendar in the US went into effect on September 2, 1752,
jumping us to September 14.

The same thing happened at the same time in the UK. I believe it was
global where the Julian/Gregorian calendars were used.

The change was different in each country. Pope Gregor decided in 1582 to
change from the Julian to his own calendar and Italy and Spain changed
right in 1582, Portugal and France followed about 2 months later in the
same year 1582.

In Germany you had both calendars for 115 years, depending in which area
you lived. The catholic areas or rather countries in Germany already
changed to the Gregorian calendar in 1584/1585, but the protestant
countries changed in 1700.

Some of the last countries in Europe were Russia (1918), Poland (1919)
and Greece (1920).

Lutz Engelhardt



--
Ancestors from Germany?
http://www.lutz-genealogy.de

Johnoh103

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Johnoh103 » 13 apr 2005 13:02:18

Thanks to all who took the time to respond. I am going to follow the
advice of Charani. When I get time, I'm going to NYPL to view issues in
Sept 1752 and look for other articles covering known historical events
prior to the official changeover. I guess it could be a coincidence
that two men with the same name died exactly one year to the day apart,
both of whom came to Boston from Fairfield, Ct. To rule that out I need
to resolve the possibility, however remote, of the newspaper's having
"jumped the gun" on the calendar change.

Christopher Jahn

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Christopher Jahn » 13 apr 2005 13:23:43

Charani <me@privacy.net> wrote in news:425ce05f$0$886$892e7fe2
@authen.white.readfreenews.net:

On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:57:24 -0500, Christopher Jahn wrote:

BTW, the calendar in the US went into effect on September 2, 1752,
jumping us to September 14.
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astrono ... endar.html

The same thing happened at the same time in the UK. I believe it was
global where the Julian/Gregorian calendars were used.


Nope. England and its colonies changed in 1752. Other parts of the world
changed at other times.

Finland and the USSR didn't change until 1918.



--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html

We're gonna go to the mall and window shoplift...

Christopher Jahn

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Christopher Jahn » 13 apr 2005 13:25:07

"Johnoh103" <blycrtr@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1113393738.680113.70200
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

Thanks to all who took the time to respond. I am going to follow the
advice of Charani. When I get time, I'm going to NYPL to view issues in
Sept 1752 and look for other articles covering known historical events
prior to the official changeover. I guess it could be a coincidence
that two men with the same name died exactly one year to the day apart,
both of whom came to Boston from Fairfield, Ct. To rule that out I need
to resolve the possibility, however remote, of the newspaper's having
"jumped the gun" on the calendar change.



It is also possible that the probate clerk wrote the wrong date down.

--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html

We're gonna go to the mall and window shoplift...

Johnoh103

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Johnoh103 » 13 apr 2005 13:55:22

Thanks for suggesting that possibility. I will need to rent the film
from LDS again and check the dates on probates preceeding and following
this one.

John Dennie

Stephen SG

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Stephen SG » 13 apr 2005 19:49:50

I must say firstly that "Christopher Jahn" suggested site looks very
complicated.

What might you think of this.............................Taken from my
files.

Time Travel

Is time real - or just a notation used by Homo sapiens? Well whatever - we
are certainly fond of changing the point of reference. Presently twice
yearly (daylight saving) - and back in 1752 - eleven days disappeared.

Whilst on the subject of dates and confusion - but not related - is date
formats. Researchers should be aware that in the UK we write dates - Day
Month Year - rather than - Month Day Year as used in North America. Whilst
this is obvious once the twelfth day is passed in any month - or for non
numeric month records. It should be watched out for - and to avoid this type
of confusion on this site - I use non-numeric months.



Julian to Gregorian Calendar

Until 1751 England and Wales used the Julian calendar - whereby the year
started on 25th March (Ladyday) - and ended the following year on 24th
March.

Changing years - part way through a month appears very strange to us now -
but this was apparently the norm until Lord Chesterfield's Act of 1751-52.
This stated that the year 1752 would begin on 1st January and end on 31st
December. In addition for 1752 only - the calendar omitted eleven days
between the 2nd and 14th September. i.e. the 2nd September was followed by
14th September 1752.

Adding to the confusion (past and present) - I believe Scotland applied the
new calendar in two stages (can anyone confirm or deny this with
certainty?). The story goes - that in 1600 the new year was put back to 1st
January and then in September 1752 the 11 day adjustment was made -
synchronizing Great Britain and its colonies to the Gregorian calendar.

This new Gregorian calendar was named after Pope Gregory XIII who enacted it
on 24th February 1582 to be implemented on 4th October 1582 which would be
immediately be followed by 15th - thus omitting 10 days. By 1752 the
Gregorian calendar was already adopted by the countries of continental
Europe. Many, in 1582 and the immediate years following. With the
Protestant countries dragging their feet.


The following table illustrates this change over.

The years of the change

Mar Apr May Jun Jul
Aug Sep Oct Nov
Dec Jan Feb Mar
Apr May Jun Jul
Aug Sep Oct Nov
Dec

-> | <-----1751---(282_days)----->
<----------1752-----(355_days)------------>



From then on was the calendar we use today

Present Day Gregorian Calendar

Jan Feb Mar Apr May
Jun Jul Aug Sep
Oct Nov Dec

<--------------1753---onwards--------------->

Typically for dates prior to 1752 - researchers and historians - date by
both calendars - when that date falls between 1st January and 24th March
inclusive.

Thus - a birth on 31st January 1735/36 shows the event occurred in 1735
under the Julian calendar but by today's Gregorian calendar - it would be
recognized as occurring in 1736.

The following table illustrates this overlap -- and maybe why mistakes can
easily be made - and compounded by September 1752 being short by 11 days.


The Julian Calendar
with Gregorian correlation

Jan Feb Mar Apr May
Jun Jul Aug Sep
Oct Nov Dec Jan
Feb Mar

-1749---->|<--------------1750-----Julian---------------->

<---------------[1750 Gregorian]-------------> <--[1751]




NOTE: It is not unusual to find errors in transcription due to the
confusion of this calendar change. Transcribed dates from before 1752 have
many errors due to this - and errors have also occurred in books by authors
who should have known better.

If experts can get it wrong then this should serve as a general warning as
it is a minefield - and you really need to know which of the many variants
of calendar was used for whatever you are transcribing.

I believe I've read somewhere that IGI dates are pre-translated to
Gregorian - so be careful!



Prior to the calendar adjustment it was common practise to use dual dating
using os ns - ('new style' 'old style') identifiers when trading with
countries already using the Gregorian Calendar - so for the trading
community it would have been an easy transition.

Lord Chesterfield's Act foresaw and legislated for a number of possible side
effects. These included such things as - not being required to pay wages or
interest for the 11 days lost - persons coming-of-age had to add 11 days to
their anniversary dates. I assume it would have also required those born
between 1st January and 14th March prior to 1751 to add 1 year to their
birthdates in addition to the 11 days.
e.g. Someone born in between 1st January and 24th March 1750 or earlier -
would find the year had incremented by 2 - as their as next birthday occurs
in 1752!

The same applied to indentured apprentices & servants - army and prisoner
discharges etc. - and also applied to all following years for those born -
enlisted - sentenced etc. - before the change. The change also resulted in a
number of riots around the country.

Other objections came from the City of London bankers who refused to pay
their taxes until 5th April 1753 instead of the 25th March which until then
had been the first day of the new year. The 5th April as the start of the
tax year has endured to this day.



- Montaigne, 1558.
A possible namesake of mine

Out of interest - the Julian Calendar was enacted in 45 BC by Julius
Caesar - hence its name and the Month July. Throughout the life of the
Julian Calendar - several 'adjustments' were made. Some being required but
others just plain tinkering - including - month length and name changes -
but generally keeping the same length years.

It is my understanding that leap years occurred every four years without
exception - there being no century adjustments. This would result in three
additional leap days being added every 400 years - which just about accounts
for the need to loose eleven days.


NOTE: I am having problems reconciling the year being incremented part way
through a month and the Julian Calendar which started the new year Kalendae
of March (1st March)! So when did the new year shift to 25th March?



BST (British Standard Time)

(originally known as British Summer Time)

Quaintly referred to by our colonial cousins as Daylight Saving - but how
you can save daylight is a complete mystery to me.

Starts last Sunday in March at 2 a.m. - clocks forward by one hour.
- darker mornings - lighter evenings.
Next event - 28th March 2004

Ends last Sunday in October at 2 a.m. - clocks backward by one hour.
- lighter mornings - darker evenings.
Next event - 31st October 2004

Well hadn't you wondered how your PC knew when to adjust the clocks - or do
you believe in magic?

This is provisional as the government of the day may override this. Now
this is programmed into PC's - it would be a very un-popular move.

During the years of world war two - double summer time was introduced
whereby the clocks were moved forward two hours in two one hour stages.
This was purported to help farmers with their harvest by giving longer
evenings - but I suspect it was psychological resulting in the nightly
bombing starting later - and therefore appearing to be shorter.







Naming Conventions



Our ancestors appeared to use the following basis for choosing names for
their children. You will find that these sort of naming patterns run through
the generations - apart from modern times. Although the latter is probably
due to present day families being a lot smaller and being more fragmented.
Not forgetting the high divorce rate. How could you apply this naming
convention to half brothers and sisters?


First Son Father's Father

First Daughter Mother's Mother

Second Son Mother's Father

Second Daughter Father's Mother

Third Son Father

Third Daughter Mother

Fourth Son Father's oldest Brother

Fourth Daughter Mother's oldest Sister

Fifth Son Father's 2nd oldest Brother or
Mother's oldest Brother

Fifth Daughter Mother's 2nd oldest Sister or Father's
oldest Sister

I have also found several instances of children being given the name of an
elder sibling that died as an infant. This can really cause confusion if
the death of the infant is not noticed.

Handed down names may comprise both given and surnames. I have found maiden
names being passed down as given names. The origin of hyphenated names
maybe? So if you find a given name that could be a surname - look for an
earlier marriage between the two names. It can be very useful when trying
to distinguish between contenders having very common surnames. This coupled
with given name patterns can give really good pointers.
When the LCC (London County Council) was formed in 1888 - it took in areas
of - Kent and Surrey - a very small part of Essex - and the total
administration for Middlesex - (The county of Middlesex ceased to exist in
all but name). For example - instances of Deptford, Greenwich, Lewisham,
Plumstead and Woolwich will appear in both Kent and London depending upon
the date of the event. The London Metropolitan Archive may be regarded as
the equivalent to a County Record Office for Middlesex - although this
library covers a lot more than just Middlesex.

Generally - records have remained with the original counties with the
exception of Middlesex.

The definition of a London Home County - is a county that has a common
boundary with London. These counties are Essex, Kent, Middlesex and Surrey.





Kinship


Who are your third cousins - second cousins twice removed - Grand Aunts and
Uncles? Once you get beyond first cousins - the public at large find these
relationships confusing - resulting in large degree of misuse. Which in
turn propagates further misuse.

To add to the confusion there are horary Aunts and Uncles. In my own case
I had two "aunts" which I had always accepted as aunts - but when I started
genealogy and began to work out relationships - I found they were cousins
some 20 years older than myself. My mother came from a large family and
they were the children of her eldest brother! Another but accepted misuse
are the partners of blood Aunts and Uncles. Then there are the close
friends of your parents - who also tend to get the horary Aunt/Uncle title -
I certainly had a few.

How do you work it out? Well starting from the obvious and expanding from
there.

Generation: Children grandchildren etc. having the same
number of descendant steps down from any given common ancestor.

e.g. - children = 2nd generation;

grand-children = 3rd generation;

great-grand-children = 4th generation;

etc.



1st Common Ancestors: I am not sure if there is a standard
definition - but the definition herein explains what I mean in context to
the rest of the relationships.

If two cousins were to trace their ancestral lines - they would eventually
arrive at the ancestor couple from which they both descended. It is any
couple thus found - that I refer to in the examples below - as 1st Common
Ancestors

Siblings: Brothers and sisters of the same family e.g - 1st
Common Ancestor would be their parents

Grandparents: Parents of both your father and mother.

Aunt & Uncles: Siblings of either of your parents
e.g - 1st Common Ancestor would be your Grandparents

Cousins:
(any degree) Must be of the same generation

1st cousins: Children of your aunts and uncles

Grand Aunts/Uncles: Siblings of all of your Grandparents -
frequently and incorrectly called Great Aunts/Uncles.
e.g - 1st Common Ancestor would be your Great-Grandparents

2nd cousins: Grandchildren of your Grand Aunts/Uncles.
e.g - 1st Common Ancestor would be your Great-Grandparents
This is the same as the relationship between your children and the children
of your cousins.

Great-Grand Aunts/Uncles: Siblings of all of your
Great-Grandparents.
e.g - 1st Common Ancestor would be your Great-Great-Grandparents.

This expands to the siblings of your Great-Great-Grand-Parents being your
Great-Great-Grand Aunts/Uncles and so on.

3rd cousins: Great-Grandchildren of your Great-Grand
Aunts/Uncles
e.g - 1st Common Ancestor would be your Great-Great-Grandparents

Well that's the easy bit - and all of this assumes that cousins haven't
inter-married.

Now for the removed bit - which only applies to cousins - and you will find
it easier to visualise if you thinks of these relationships as :-

One generation removed rather than once removed
Two generations removed rather that twice removed
And so on.

I've frequently had said to me - you're my fathers 1st cousin so that makes
us second cousins - WRONG. In fact the relationship is 1st cousins one
generation removed - and it is the earlier generation that governs.
Remember that cousins to whatever degree - must be of the same generation.

So your Grandfathers 1st cousin is your 1st cousin two generations removed -
your Grandfathers second cousin is your second cousin two generations
removed - and so on.

By the same token - your 1st cousins Grandchildren are your 1st cousins two
generations removed.






Estimating Birth Dates



Estimating Date-of-Birth (DOB) to identify individuals to within realistic
time zones. I have found the following rule-of-thumb provides a good
starting point in which to start searches.

As a first estimate take the same DOB as that for the spouse. Make
variations to this when a mothers 1st child would be after she was 30 years
old. Also take the age of parents and children into account. A general rule
is that 1st children are born when the parents are about 25 years old and
1st marriages usually occur a couple of years before that.

Other considerations

For England and Wales, in times past apprentices were not allowed to marry -
and all persons under the age of 21 years required parents permission - or
that of a Court. That age is now 18 years.

Again for England and Wales up to 1925 - the legal age of consent was - 12
years old for girls and 14 years old for boys. That age is now 16 years for
both sexes.

I am NOT sure this is correct as I have seen conflicting dates since writing
this - suggesting that the age of consent was raised very much earlier than
this! (1700's??) If you can give a definitive answer - I would appreciate
hearing from you?

As you get back further - it was the custom for younger sisters NOT to marry
before the marriage of any elder sister.

Civil registration started 1837 - but it was 1868 before civil birth & death
registration was required by law. So if you fail to find someone - check
church records.

Whilst parish registers in England and Wales were formally instituted by Act
of Parliament in 1597 - a few go back another 60 years.


Stephen SG















"Johnoh103" <blycrtr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113343407.927182.168200@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
| As I understand the problem of the calendar before 1752, when the
| switch was made to the Julian, the year began on March 25. I have a
| microcopy of an obit from a newspaper, "The Boston Gazette or Weekly
| Journal," from the issue dated January 19, 1748 which indicates John
| Dennie died one week previously. I also have copies of his probate
| records from Suffolk County, Mass. which begin on February 9, 1747.
| >From other evidence I'm reasonably certain this is the same man. Is
| it possible that the newspaper was already using the Julian calendar,
| some years before its official adoption? (I'm listing his d.o.d in my
| file as 12 Jan. 1747/48)
|
| Thanks for taking the time to read my post,
| John Dennie
|

Steve Hayes

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Steve Hayes » 14 apr 2005 05:20:35

On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:05:47 +0100, Charani <me@privacy.net> wrote:

On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:57:24 -0500, Christopher Jahn wrote:

BTW, the calendar in the US went into effect on September 2, 1752,
jumping us to September 14.
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astrono ... endar.html

The same thing happened at the same time in the UK. I believe it was
global where the Julian/Gregorian calendars were used.

No, it happened at different times in different countries. The 1752 change was
in British-ruled countries, thought.

--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (see web page if it doesn't work)
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7783/

Charani

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Charani » 14 apr 2005 09:17:18

On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:28:11 +0200, Lutz Engelhardt wrote:


The change was different in each country. Pope Gregor decided in 1582 to
change from the Julian to his own calendar and Italy and Spain changed
right in 1582, Portugal and France followed about 2 months later in the
same year 1582.

In Germany you had both calendars for 115 years, depending in which area
you lived. The catholic areas or rather countries in Germany already
changed to the Gregorian calendar in 1584/1585, but the protestant
countries changed in 1700.

Some of the last countries in Europe were Russia (1918), Poland (1919)
and Greece (1920).


You live and learn :)) Thank you for the clarification.

Same to Christopher and Steve :))

Johnoh103

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Johnoh103 » 14 apr 2005 14:24:01

Thanks to all for your thoughtful responses. I have learned a lot from
the exchange. I'm afraid I framed my original question incorrectly. The
British Calendar Act of 1751 addressed two issues. The correction of
dropping 11 days out of Sept. 1752 is not in play in my problem. Where
I thought the newspaper might have "jumped the gun" is in beginning the
year on January 1. Indeed the Act states: "Whereas the legal
Supputation of the Year of our Lord in that Part of Great Britain
called England, according to which the Year beginneth on the 25th Day
of March, hath been found by Experience to be attended with divers
Inconveniencies, not only as it differs from the Usage of neighbouring
Nations, but also from the legal Method of Computation in that part of
Great Britain called Scotlond [sic], and from the common usage
throughout the whole Kingdom, . . . " That last clause leaves room
for the possibility that the newspaper may indeed have been starting
the year on Jan. 1, at least IMHO.
(British Calendar Act of 1751 is online at :
webexhibits.org/calendars/year-text-British.html)

Thanks Again,
John Dennie

Christopher Jahn

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Christopher Jahn » 14 apr 2005 15:11:04

"Johnoh103" <blycrtr@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1113485041.145229.264230
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

Thanks to all for your thoughtful responses. I have learned a lot from
the exchange. I'm afraid I framed my original question incorrectly. The
British Calendar Act of 1751 addressed two issues. The correction of
dropping 11 days out of Sept. 1752 is not in play in my problem. Where
I thought the newspaper might have "jumped the gun" is in beginning the
year on January 1. Indeed the Act states: "Whereas the legal
Supputation of the Year of our Lord in that Part of Great Britain
called England, according to which the Year beginneth on the 25th Day
of March, hath been found by Experience to be attended with divers
Inconveniencies, not only as it differs from the Usage of neighbouring
Nations, but also from the legal Method of Computation in that part of
Great Britain called Scotlond [sic], and from the common usage
throughout the whole Kingdom, . . . " That last clause leaves room
for the possibility that the newspaper may indeed have been starting
the year on Jan. 1, at least IMHO.
(British Calendar Act of 1751 is online at :
webexhibits.org/calendars/year-text-British.html)



But that still wouldn't explain the 11 month discrepancy between the
probate and the obituary.


--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html

All men are created unequal.

Johnoh103

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Johnoh103 » 14 apr 2005 15:56:18

For now, I am assuming that John Dennie died in Boston on 12 January of
1747, according to the Old Style year, which the Court would have been
using. Under the Old Style year the last three months of the year were
January, February and March, so it was still 1747. I am also assuming
that the newspaper was already using the New Style year, where the
first month of the year was January. (The Act says it was in: "common
usage throughout the whole Kingdom.") So while court documents would
record the date as 1747, the newspaper covers the death in its issue of
19 January,1748.
I realize that my assumptions may be totally off base, and I'm open to
any and all corection and clarification.

John Dennie

Gjest

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 apr 2005 18:07:19

Can anyone help please , I am looking for a skin care range from this
company, http://www.naturalisproducts.com , i am particularly
interested in their milia treatment which i read that can treat
stubborn milia effectively. some reviews i picked up from the internet
about this,

http://www.organiconline.com.sg/npmilia.htm

http://www.godubai.com/messageboard/mes ... rum=Health

http://appi.can.com.sg/forum/mvnforum/v ... hread=1605

anyone in the know please post here! Thanks in advance!

Christopher Jahn

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Christopher Jahn » 14 apr 2005 18:31:45

"Johnoh103" <blycrtr@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1113490578.531415.133540
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

For now, I am assuming that John Dennie died in Boston on 12 January of
1747, according to the Old Style year, which the Court would have been
using. Under the Old Style year the last three months of the year were
January, February and March, so it was still 1747. I am also assuming
that the newspaper was already using the New Style year, where the
first month of the year was January. (The Act says it was in: "common
usage throughout the whole Kingdom.") So while court documents would
record the date as 1747, the newspaper covers the death in its issue of
19 January,1748.
I realize that my assumptions may be totally off base, and I'm open to
any and all corection and clarification.


Yes, it's completely off-base and unsupported by the facts, but do what
you like.


--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html

Don't vote--it only encourages them!

Huntersglenn

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Huntersglenn » 14 apr 2005 20:43:52

Johnoh103 wrote:
Thanks to all for your thoughtful responses. I have learned a lot from
the exchange. I'm afraid I framed my original question incorrectly. The
British Calendar Act of 1751 addressed two issues. The correction of
dropping 11 days out of Sept. 1752 is not in play in my problem. Where
I thought the newspaper might have "jumped the gun" is in beginning the
year on Ja nuary1.IndeedtheActstatesWhereasthelegal
Supputation of the Year of our Lord in that Part of Great Britain
called England, according to which the Year beginneth on the 25th Day
of March, hath been found by Experience to be attended with divers
Inconveniencies, not only as it differs from the Usage of neighbouring
Nations, but also from the legal Method of Computation in that part of
Great Britain called Scotlond [sic], and from the common usage
throughout the whole Kingdom, . . . " That last clause leaves room
for the possibility that the newspaper may indeed have been starting
the year on Jan. 1, at least IMHO.
(British Calendar Act of 1751 is online at :
webexhibits.org/calendars/year-text-British.html)

Thanks Again,
John Dennie

I think that you're going to need to look at other copies of that same

newspaper in order to find your answer. Unfortunately for you, that is
mostly likely going to mean starting at the earliest known issue of the
paper and working toward the date of the obit, or starting at the obit
and working as far back as you're able to go. The only way to be sure
which dating system the newspaper was using is to do something that vast.

And you might also want to check some of the issues AFTER the obit --
just in case the date of death had been a typo and the paper later
issued a correction.

Cathy

Johnoh103

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Johnoh103 » 14 apr 2005 21:32:28

Went to NYPL yesterday to try to start on that but the reel I used
before has gone missing. Will be trying another repository.


Thanks,
John Dennie

Steve Hayes

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Steve Hayes » 15 apr 2005 02:45:52

On 14 Apr 2005 10:07:19 -0700, aida_leeen@yahoo.com wrote:

Can anyone help please , I am looking for a skin care range from this
company, http://www.naturalisproducts.com , i am particularly
interested in their milia treatment which i read that can treat
stubborn milia effectively. some reviews i picked up from the internet
about this,

Why don't you ask them, then?

You seem to have their web page.

What does it hasve to do with the Gregorian and Julian Calendars?


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (see web page if it doesn't work)
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7783/

Austin W. Spencer

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Austin W. Spencer » 19 apr 2005 08:40:02

On 12 Apr 2005 19:16:50 -0700, "Johnoh103" <blycrtr@yahoo.com> wrote:

Not transcriptions. Newspaper is from microfilm of original at NYPL.
Copied both the front page and the interior page with the obit.
Probates are from the LDS microfilm of the probate packet at Suffolk
County Mass. Probate Court. My understanding of Gregorian calendar
system comes from pp. 41-43 of "The Researcher's Guide to American
Genealogy" by Val D. Greenwood .Always possible these were two
different men with the same name, but I don't think so. Thanks for
taking the time to respond.

John Dennie

My universal calendar says that under the English Julian calendar, 19 January
was a Monday in 1746/7, and a Tuesday in 1747/8. If there is a day of the week
in the masthead of your front page copy, then that ought to pin down the correct
year. Or, if you have the film, go back to the last issue of the previous
December. Does its date read "1747" or "1748"?

Austin W. Spencer

Johnoh103

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Johnoh103 » 19 apr 2005 13:00:08

Thanks so much Austin. I visited the NYPL last week and the reel I used
in the past has gone missing. However, I do have a photocopy of the
first page and it's for "Tuesday, January 19, 1748." Also, I have a
photocopy of the first page for the issue of "Tuesday, December 29,
1747."

John Dennie

Pam

Re: Gregorian/Julian Calendar Question

Legg inn av Pam » 19 apr 2005 16:40:40

John,

I don't recall the original post but if you wanted to know whether the
Tuesday, Jan. 19, 1748 was in the Gregorian or Julian Calendar, it is the
Julian. There's a very good, free program called Days in which you can
search various dates and see what they are in Julian, Gregorian or the
French Republic Calendar. It can be downloaded at
http://octhygesen.homepage.dk/EngDage.html

--
Pam
http://www.pamsgenealogy.net

"Johnoh103" <blycrtr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113912008.672444.205270@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Thanks so much Austin. I visited the NYPL last week and the reel I used
in the past has gone missing. However, I do have a photocopy of the
first page and it's for "Tuesday, January 19, 1748." Also, I have a
photocopy of the first page for the issue of "Tuesday, December 29,
1747."

John Dennie

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