A history lesson.
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
James A. Doemer
A history lesson.
A distant cousin of mine was asking me about an ancestor of his on his
father's side, or rather about where this ancestor came from. One source he
has, a daughter-in-law of the person in question, said that she came from
Alsace-Lorraine. The 1870 U.S. Census has her listed as coming from
Bavaria. Can both of these sources be true? Any information is greatly
appreciated.
father's side, or rather about where this ancestor came from. One source he
has, a daughter-in-law of the person in question, said that she came from
Alsace-Lorraine. The 1870 U.S. Census has her listed as coming from
Bavaria. Can both of these sources be true? Any information is greatly
appreciated.
-
Christopher Jahn
Re: A history lesson.
"James A. Doemer" <jdjunkmail@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:1sxTd.5346$873.1701@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:
One of my family lines, the Feltens (Veltin), came from Alsace-Lorraine.
The region has been passed back and forth between Germany and France for
centuries.
http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ELS-LOT/als-hist.html
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html
Art is beautiful until it becomes real or the truth. (Jonathan
Carroll)
news:1sxTd.5346$873.1701@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:
A distant cousin of mine was asking me about an ancestor of his on his
father's side, or rather about where this ancestor came from. One
source he has, a daughter-in-law of the person in question, said that
she came from Alsace-Lorraine. The 1870 U.S. Census has her listed
as coming from Bavaria. Can both of these sources be true? Any
information is greatly appreciated.
One of my family lines, the Feltens (Veltin), came from Alsace-Lorraine.
The region has been passed back and forth between Germany and France for
centuries.
http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ELS-LOT/als-hist.html
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html
Art is beautiful until it becomes real or the truth. (Jonathan
Carroll)
-
Bob Melson
Re: A history lesson.
On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:21:52 -0600, Christopher Jahn wrote:
That doesn't answer the question. Geographically, Alsace-Lorraine is on
the western border between Germany and France, Strasbourg is the "state"
capital. Bavaria, on the otherhand, is in the far southeast of modern
germany, capital Munich, and borders Switzerland, Austria and Hungary. On
the basis of geography alone, it's pretty certain that one or the other
source is incorrect. I'd be more inclined to believe the daughter-in-law
to be incorrect, but the census takers also have been known to make
mistakes.
Bob Melson
--
Robert G. Melson | Nothing is more terrible than
Rio Grande MicroSolutions | ignorance in action.
El Paso, Texas | Goethe
melsonr(at)earthlink(dot)net
"James A. Doemer" <jdjunkmail@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:1sxTd.5346$873.1701@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:
A distant cousin of mine was asking me about an ancestor of his on his
father's side, or rather about where this ancestor came from. One
source he has, a daughter-in-law of the person in question, said that
she came from Alsace-Lorraine. The 1870 U.S. Census has her listed as
coming from Bavaria. Can both of these sources be true? Any
information is greatly appreciated.
One of my family lines, the Feltens (Veltin), came from Alsace-Lorraine.
The region has been passed back and forth between Germany and France for
centuries.
http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ELS-LOT/als-hist.html
That doesn't answer the question. Geographically, Alsace-Lorraine is on
the western border between Germany and France, Strasbourg is the "state"
capital. Bavaria, on the otherhand, is in the far southeast of modern
germany, capital Munich, and borders Switzerland, Austria and Hungary. On
the basis of geography alone, it's pretty certain that one or the other
source is incorrect. I'd be more inclined to believe the daughter-in-law
to be incorrect, but the census takers also have been known to make
mistakes.
Bob Melson
--
Robert G. Melson | Nothing is more terrible than
Rio Grande MicroSolutions | ignorance in action.
El Paso, Texas | Goethe
melsonr(at)earthlink(dot)net
-
Christopher Jahn
Re: A history lesson.
Bob Melson <melsonr@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:pan.2005.02.25.05.03.40.842821@earthlink.net:
Actually, it kinda does.
Mistakes like "Bavaria is part of Germany, and this person from Alsace-
Lorraine speaks German, so Alsace-Lorraine is part of Bavaria".
Census takers in the nineteenth century tended to use Bavaria, Germany,
and Austria interchangeably, depending on their level of education,
understanding of geography, and spelling ability. It is not at all
surprising for a census taker to list someone from Alsace-Lorraine as
being "Bavarian"; it was a german province that wasn't Germany or
Austria, and was easier to spell than "Alsace-Lorraine".
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html
If you view your problem closely enough you will recognize
yourself as part of the problem.
news:pan.2005.02.25.05.03.40.842821@earthlink.net:
On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:21:52 -0600, Christopher Jahn wrote:
"James A. Doemer" <jdjunkmail@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:1sxTd.5346$873.1701@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:
A distant cousin of mine was asking me about an ancestor of his on
his father's side, or rather about where this ancestor came from.
One source he has, a daughter-in-law of the person in question, said
that she came from Alsace-Lorraine. The 1870 U.S. Census has her
listed as coming from Bavaria. Can both of these sources be true?
Any information is greatly appreciated.
One of my family lines, the Feltens (Veltin), came from
Alsace-Lorraine.
The region has been passed back and forth between Germany and France
for centuries.
http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ELS-LOT/als-hist.html
That doesn't answer the question.
Actually, it kinda does.
I'd be more inclined to
believe the daughter-in-law to be incorrect, but the census takers
also have been known to make mistakes.
Mistakes like "Bavaria is part of Germany, and this person from Alsace-
Lorraine speaks German, so Alsace-Lorraine is part of Bavaria".
Census takers in the nineteenth century tended to use Bavaria, Germany,
and Austria interchangeably, depending on their level of education,
understanding of geography, and spelling ability. It is not at all
surprising for a census taker to list someone from Alsace-Lorraine as
being "Bavarian"; it was a german province that wasn't Germany or
Austria, and was easier to spell than "Alsace-Lorraine".
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html
If you view your problem closely enough you will recognize
yourself as part of the problem.
-
roro
Re: A history lesson.
"Christopher Jahn" <xjahn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96082189C6F0xjahn@216.196.97.136...
The 1870 census asks for "Place of Birth Naming the State, Territory, or
Country" . Alsace-Lorraine was never a country, while Bavaria was.
Alsace was part of France until 1871. Consider that both sources may be
wrong. You really need the passenger list for the ship the ancestor arrived
on to answer the question of origin.
news:Xns96082189C6F0xjahn@216.196.97.136...
Bob Melson <melsonr@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:pan.2005.02.25.05.03.40.842821@earthlink.net:
On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:21:52 -0600, Christopher Jahn wrote:
"James A. Doemer" <jdjunkmail@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:1sxTd.5346$873.1701@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:
A distant cousin of mine was asking me about an ancestor of his on
his father's side, or rather about where this ancestor came from.
One source he has, a daughter-in-law of the person in question, said
that she came from Alsace-Lorraine. The 1870 U.S. Census has her
listed as coming from Bavaria. Can both of these sources be true?
Any information is greatly appreciated.
One of my family lines, the Feltens (Veltin), came from
Alsace-Lorraine.
The region has been passed back and forth between Germany and France
for centuries.
http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ELS-LOT/als-hist.html
That doesn't answer the question.
Actually, it kinda does.
I'd be more inclined to
believe the daughter-in-law to be incorrect, but the census takers
also have been known to make mistakes.
Mistakes like "Bavaria is part of Germany, and this person from Alsace-
Lorraine speaks German, so Alsace-Lorraine is part of Bavaria".
Census takers in the nineteenth century tended to use Bavaria, Germany,
and Austria interchangeably, depending on their level of education,
understanding of geography, and spelling ability. It is not at all
surprising for a census taker to list someone from Alsace-Lorraine as
being "Bavarian"; it was a german province that wasn't Germany or
Austria, and was easier to spell than "Alsace-Lorraine".
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html
If you view your problem closely enough you will recognize
yourself as part of the problem.
The 1870 census asks for "Place of Birth Naming the State, Territory, or
Country" . Alsace-Lorraine was never a country, while Bavaria was.
Alsace was part of France until 1871. Consider that both sources may be
wrong. You really need the passenger list for the ship the ancestor arrived
on to answer the question of origin.
-
Lutz Engelhardt
Re: A history lesson.
roro wrote:
Taking the subject of this thread for real may lead to a more
substantial answer to the original question....
Alsace was NOT part of France until 1871. In 870 (treaty of Meersen)
Alsace became part of the east-frankonian (so to speak German) empire.
From 925 on it belonged to the duchy of Schwaben (Swabia). In the
Westphalian peace treaty of 1648 France got the part of Alsace belonging
to Habsburg until then. King Louis XIV occupied Strassbourg, the capital
of Alsace and started the so called French-Palatinate war of heritage
1688-1697 (remember Palatinate for later) and finally during the French
Revolution Alsace came to France completely. 1871 until 1918 Alsace
became part of the German Empire and came back to France by the treaty
of Versaille 1919 where it belonged until today besides 4 years of
German occupation 1940-1944.
Now Palatinate: this German region neighbors Alsace-Lorraine and
belonged to the house of Wittelsbach since 1214. The house of
Wittelsbach reigned Bavaria and Palatinate for many centuries, which is
the historic reason for Palatinate being part of Bavaria many times in
the following centuries. 1329-1623 Palatinate was independant, but in
1623 it became part of Bavaria again. In 1816 it became officially a
Bavarian "Regierungsbezirk" until the 20th century.
Knowing all this it is much easier to understand, that it could be
possible to have ancestors coming from Alsace-Lorraine AND from Bavaria:
if the family was living right at the border there could be parts of the
family from one side (Alsace-Lorraine) and parts from the other side
(Bavaria). I had to deal with such a case just 2 weeks ago.
I don't say this is the only and true explanation, but knowing the
history of these areas helps to see the possibilities...
Lutz
--
Ancestors from Germany?
http://www.lutz-genealogy.de
"Christopher Jahn" <xjahn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96082189C6F0xjahn@216.196.97.136...
Bob Melson <melsonr@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:pan.2005.02.25.05.03.40.842821@earthlink.net:
"James A. Doemer" <jdjunkmail@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:1sxTd.5346$873.1701@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:
One source he has, a daughter-in-law of the person in question, said
that she came from Alsace-Lorraine. The 1870 U.S. Census has her
listed as coming from Bavaria. Can both of these sources be true?
The 1870 census asks for "Place of Birth Naming the State, Territory, or
Country" . Alsace-Lorraine was never a country, while Bavaria was.
Alsace was part of France until 1871. Consider that both sources may be
wrong. You really need the passenger list for the ship the ancestor arrived
on to answer the question of origin.
Taking the subject of this thread for real may lead to a more
substantial answer to the original question....
Alsace was NOT part of France until 1871. In 870 (treaty of Meersen)
Alsace became part of the east-frankonian (so to speak German) empire.
From 925 on it belonged to the duchy of Schwaben (Swabia). In the
Westphalian peace treaty of 1648 France got the part of Alsace belonging
to Habsburg until then. King Louis XIV occupied Strassbourg, the capital
of Alsace and started the so called French-Palatinate war of heritage
1688-1697 (remember Palatinate for later) and finally during the French
Revolution Alsace came to France completely. 1871 until 1918 Alsace
became part of the German Empire and came back to France by the treaty
of Versaille 1919 where it belonged until today besides 4 years of
German occupation 1940-1944.
Now Palatinate: this German region neighbors Alsace-Lorraine and
belonged to the house of Wittelsbach since 1214. The house of
Wittelsbach reigned Bavaria and Palatinate for many centuries, which is
the historic reason for Palatinate being part of Bavaria many times in
the following centuries. 1329-1623 Palatinate was independant, but in
1623 it became part of Bavaria again. In 1816 it became officially a
Bavarian "Regierungsbezirk" until the 20th century.
Knowing all this it is much easier to understand, that it could be
possible to have ancestors coming from Alsace-Lorraine AND from Bavaria:
if the family was living right at the border there could be parts of the
family from one side (Alsace-Lorraine) and parts from the other side
(Bavaria). I had to deal with such a case just 2 weeks ago.
I don't say this is the only and true explanation, but knowing the
history of these areas helps to see the possibilities...
Lutz
--
Ancestors from Germany?
http://www.lutz-genealogy.de
-
singhals
Re: A history lesson.
Christopher Jahn wrote:
Particularly if the enumeree said it the German way, and the enumerator
knew it the French way ... Bavaria may have been their compromise
agreement -- both of 'em knew it was wrong, but at least they could
agree on something! (g)
Cheryl
surprising for a census taker to list someone from Alsace-Lorraine as
being "Bavarian"; it was a german province that wasn't Germany or
Austria, and was easier to spell than "Alsace-Lorraine".
Particularly if the enumeree said it the German way, and the enumerator
knew it the French way ... Bavaria may have been their compromise
agreement -- both of 'em knew it was wrong, but at least they could
agree on something! (g)
Cheryl
-
R Ouimet
Re: A history lesson.
"Lutz Engelhardt" <mail@lutz-genealogy.de> a écrit dans le message de
news:421ef987$0$8795$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de...
And Lorraine was not and is not Alsace. The expression Alsace-Lorraine
started to be use in 1871, when Alsace and a part of Lorraine were gived up
to Germany after a war losted by France.
Raymond Ouimet
news:421ef987$0$8795$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de...
roro wrote:
"Christopher Jahn" <xjahn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96082189C6F0xjahn@216.196.97.136...
Bob Melson <melsonr@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:pan.2005.02.25.05.03.40.842821@earthlink.net:
"James A. Doemer" <jdjunkmail@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:1sxTd.5346$873.1701@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:
One source he has, a daughter-in-law of the person in question, said
that she came from Alsace-Lorraine. The 1870 U.S. Census has her
listed as coming from Bavaria. Can both of these sources be true?
The 1870 census asks for "Place of Birth Naming the State, Territory,
or
Country" . Alsace-Lorraine was never a country, while Bavaria was.
Alsace was part of France until 1871. Consider that both sources may be
wrong. You really need the passenger list for the ship the ancestor
arrived
on to answer the question of origin.
Taking the subject of this thread for real may lead to a more
substantial answer to the original question....
Alsace was NOT part of France until 1871. In 870 (treaty of Meersen)
Alsace became part of the east-frankonian (so to speak German) empire.
From 925 on it belonged to the duchy of Schwaben (Swabia). In the
Westphalian peace treaty of 1648 France got the part of Alsace belonging
to Habsburg until then. King Louis XIV occupied Strassbourg, the capital
of Alsace and started the so called French-Palatinate war of heritage
1688-1697 (remember Palatinate for later) and finally during the French
Revolution Alsace came to France completely. 1871 until 1918 Alsace
became part of the German Empire and came back to France by the treaty
of Versaille 1919 where it belonged until today besides 4 years of
German occupation 1940-1944.
Now Palatinate: this German region neighbors Alsace-Lorraine and
belonged to the house of Wittelsbach since 1214. The house of
Wittelsbach reigned Bavaria and Palatinate for many centuries, which is
the historic reason for Palatinate being part of Bavaria many times in
the following centuries. 1329-1623 Palatinate was independant, but in
1623 it became part of Bavaria again. In 1816 it became officially a
Bavarian "Regierungsbezirk" until the 20th century.
Knowing all this it is much easier to understand, that it could be
possible to have ancestors coming from Alsace-Lorraine AND from Bavaria:
if the family was living right at the border there could be parts of the
family from one side (Alsace-Lorraine) and parts from the other side
(Bavaria). I had to deal with such a case just 2 weeks ago.
I don't say this is the only and true explanation, but knowing the
history of these areas helps to see the possibilities...
Lutz
Bonjour,
And Lorraine was not and is not Alsace. The expression Alsace-Lorraine
started to be use in 1871, when Alsace and a part of Lorraine were gived up
to Germany after a war losted by France.
Raymond Ouimet
-
Lutz Engelhardt
Re: A history lesson.
R Ouimet schrieb:
You are absolutely right. Mais je ne voulais pas ouvrir un autre coin de
bataille en expliquer ca...
Salut au Canada,
Lutz
--
Ancestors from Germany?
http://www.lutz-genealogy.de
And Lorraine was not and is not Alsace. The expression Alsace-Lorraine
started to be use in 1871, when Alsace and a part of Lorraine were gived up
to Germany after a war losted by France.
You are absolutely right. Mais je ne voulais pas ouvrir un autre coin de
bataille en expliquer ca...
Salut au Canada,
Lutz
--
Ancestors from Germany?
http://www.lutz-genealogy.de
-
saki
Re: A history lesson.
Lutz Engelhardt <mail@lutz-genealogy.de> wrote in
news:421ef987$0$8795$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de:
I appreciate the detailed response.
I have a great-great-grandmother Karolina who was born in Zweibrucken
with the last name Laurent (mother's maiden name De Vigny). In the U.S.
census records she never referred to herself as being from Alsace
Lorraine but rather Bavaria or just Germany.
Yet her daughter's death certificate (where her mother's place of birth
is listed) says Karolina was from Alsace Lorraine.
This explains in part a family legend that there were French roots in my
family but I'm still not entirely sure what national allegiance folks
from Zweibrucken felt they had. Since it was a border town too I suppose
it could go either way.
----
saki@ucla.edu
news:421ef987$0$8795$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de:
Knowing all this it is much easier to understand, that it could be
possible to have ancestors coming from Alsace-Lorraine AND from
Bavaria: if the family was living right at the border there could be
parts of the family from one side (Alsace-Lorraine) and parts from the
other side (Bavaria). I had to deal with such a case just 2 weeks ago.
I don't say this is the only and true explanation, but knowing the
history of these areas helps to see the possibilities...
I appreciate the detailed response.
I have a great-great-grandmother Karolina who was born in Zweibrucken
with the last name Laurent (mother's maiden name De Vigny). In the U.S.
census records she never referred to herself as being from Alsace
Lorraine but rather Bavaria or just Germany.
Yet her daughter's death certificate (where her mother's place of birth
is listed) says Karolina was from Alsace Lorraine.
This explains in part a family legend that there were French roots in my
family but I'm still not entirely sure what national allegiance folks
from Zweibrucken felt they had. Since it was a border town too I suppose
it could go either way.
----
saki@ucla.edu
-
roro
Re: A history lesson.
"Lutz Engelhardt" <mail@lutz-genealogy.de> wrote in message
news:421ef987$0$8795$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de...
Sorry, I did not mean to imply that Alsace had always been a part of France
prior to 1871. As you did, I should have pointed out the the Alcase-Lorraine
region has a complex history. I was just trying to look at things as they
were at the time of the 1870 USA census.
news:421ef987$0$8795$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de...
roro wrote:
"Christopher Jahn" <xjahn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96082189C6F0xjahn@216.196.97.136...
Bob Melson <melsonr@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:pan.2005.02.25.05.03.40.842821@earthlink.net:
"James A. Doemer" <jdjunkmail@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:1sxTd.5346$873.1701@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:
One source he has, a daughter-in-law of the person in question, said
that she came from Alsace-Lorraine. The 1870 U.S. Census has her
listed as coming from Bavaria. Can both of these sources be true?
The 1870 census asks for "Place of Birth Naming the State, Territory,
or
Country" . Alsace-Lorraine was never a country, while Bavaria was.
Alsace was part of France until 1871. Consider that both sources may be
wrong. You really need the passenger list for the ship the ancestor
arrived
on to answer the question of origin.
Taking the subject of this thread for real may lead to a more
substantial answer to the original question....
Alsace was NOT part of France until 1871. In 870 (treaty of Meersen)
Alsace became part of the east-frankonian (so to speak German) empire.
From 925 on it belonged to the duchy of Schwaben (Swabia). In the
Westphalian peace treaty of 1648 France got the part of Alsace belonging
to Habsburg until then. King Louis XIV occupied Strassbourg, the capital
of Alsace and started the so called French-Palatinate war of heritage
1688-1697 (remember Palatinate for later) and finally during the French
Revolution Alsace came to France completely. 1871 until 1918 Alsace
became part of the German Empire and came back to France by the treaty
of Versaille 1919 where it belonged until today besides 4 years of
German occupation 1940-1944.
Now Palatinate: this German region neighbors Alsace-Lorraine and
belonged to the house of Wittelsbach since 1214. The house of
Wittelsbach reigned Bavaria and Palatinate for many centuries, which is
the historic reason for Palatinate being part of Bavaria many times in
the following centuries. 1329-1623 Palatinate was independant, but in
1623 it became part of Bavaria again. In 1816 it became officially a
Bavarian "Regierungsbezirk" until the 20th century.
Knowing all this it is much easier to understand, that it could be
possible to have ancestors coming from Alsace-Lorraine AND from Bavaria:
if the family was living right at the border there could be parts of the
family from one side (Alsace-Lorraine) and parts from the other side
(Bavaria). I had to deal with such a case just 2 weeks ago.
I don't say this is the only and true explanation, but knowing the
history of these areas helps to see the possibilities...
Lutz
--
Ancestors from Germany?
http://www.lutz-genealogy.de
Sorry, I did not mean to imply that Alsace had always been a part of France
prior to 1871. As you did, I should have pointed out the the Alcase-Lorraine
region has a complex history. I was just trying to look at things as they
were at the time of the 1870 USA census.
-
roro
Re: A history lesson.
"saki" <saki@ucla.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns96087895E48E2sakiuclaedu@130.133.1.4...
Here is a link to an 1891 map of Southern Germany
http://www.rollintl.com/roll/grs1891map.htm
The map shows that Zweibrucken is in Palatinate Bavaria. Based on the map I
would say that your ancestor was from Palatinate Bavaria and not from
Alsace-Lorraine.
news:Xns96087895E48E2sakiuclaedu@130.133.1.4...
Lutz Engelhardt <mail@lutz-genealogy.de> wrote in
news:421ef987$0$8795$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de:
Knowing all this it is much easier to understand, that it could be
possible to have ancestors coming from Alsace-Lorraine AND from
Bavaria: if the family was living right at the border there could be
parts of the family from one side (Alsace-Lorraine) and parts from the
other side (Bavaria). I had to deal with such a case just 2 weeks ago.
I don't say this is the only and true explanation, but knowing the
history of these areas helps to see the possibilities...
I appreciate the detailed response.
I have a great-great-grandmother Karolina who was born in Zweibrucken
with the last name Laurent (mother's maiden name De Vigny). In the U.S.
census records she never referred to herself as being from Alsace
Lorraine but rather Bavaria or just Germany.
Yet her daughter's death certificate (where her mother's place of birth
is listed) says Karolina was from Alsace Lorraine.
This explains in part a family legend that there were French roots in my
family but I'm still not entirely sure what national allegiance folks
from Zweibrucken felt they had. Since it was a border town too I suppose
it could go either way.
----
saki@ucla.edu
Here is a link to an 1891 map of Southern Germany
http://www.rollintl.com/roll/grs1891map.htm
The map shows that Zweibrucken is in Palatinate Bavaria. Based on the map I
would say that your ancestor was from Palatinate Bavaria and not from
Alsace-Lorraine.
-
James A. Doemer
Re: A history lesson.
"Lutz Engelhardt" <mail@lutz-genealogy.de> wrote in message
news:421ef987$0$8795$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de...
[snip]
First, let me thank everyone who answered my question. The person in
question was one Margaret Eva Funke who was born on the 3rd of January,
1832. She died on the 22nd of December, 1922 in Detroit, Michigan. It
appears that, from what Mr. Englhardt, and others, have wrote, and some
websites I've read, that it was indeed possible to be from both
Alsace-Lorraine, and Bavaria. Margaret came to the U.S. sometime around
1845.
Again, thanks to all!
news:421ef987$0$8795$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de...
roro wrote:
[snip]
Taking the subject of this thread for real may lead to a more
substantial answer to the original question....
Alsace was NOT part of France until 1871. In 870 (treaty of Meersen)
Alsace became part of the east-frankonian (so to speak German) empire.
From 925 on it belonged to the duchy of Schwaben (Swabia). In the
Westphalian peace treaty of 1648 France got the part of Alsace belonging
to Habsburg until then. King Louis XIV occupied Strassbourg, the capital
of Alsace and started the so called French-Palatinate war of heritage
1688-1697 (remember Palatinate for later) and finally during the French
Revolution Alsace came to France completely. 1871 until 1918 Alsace
became part of the German Empire and came back to France by the treaty
of Versaille 1919 where it belonged until today besides 4 years of
German occupation 1940-1944.
Now Palatinate: this German region neighbors Alsace-Lorraine and
belonged to the house of Wittelsbach since 1214. The house of
Wittelsbach reigned Bavaria and Palatinate for many centuries, which is
the historic reason for Palatinate being part of Bavaria many times in
the following centuries. 1329-1623 Palatinate was independant, but in
1623 it became part of Bavaria again. In 1816 it became officially a
Bavarian "Regierungsbezirk" until the 20th century.
Knowing all this it is much easier to understand, that it could be
possible to have ancestors coming from Alsace-Lorraine AND from Bavaria:
if the family was living right at the border there could be parts of the
family from one side (Alsace-Lorraine) and parts from the other side
(Bavaria). I had to deal with such a case just 2 weeks ago.
I don't say this is the only and true explanation, but knowing the
history of these areas helps to see the possibilities...
Lutz
First, let me thank everyone who answered my question. The person in
question was one Margaret Eva Funke who was born on the 3rd of January,
1832. She died on the 22nd of December, 1922 in Detroit, Michigan. It
appears that, from what Mr. Englhardt, and others, have wrote, and some
websites I've read, that it was indeed possible to be from both
Alsace-Lorraine, and Bavaria. Margaret came to the U.S. sometime around
1845.
Again, thanks to all!
-
Lutz Engelhardt
Re: A history lesson.
I have a great-great-grandmother Karolina who was born in Zweibrucken
with the last name Laurent (mother's maiden name De Vigny). In the U.S.
census records she never referred to herself as being from Alsace
Lorraine but rather Bavaria or just Germany.
Yet her daughter's death certificate (where her mother's place of birth
is listed) says Karolina was from Alsace Lorraine.
A very good example of what I wanted to point out...
Zweibrücken is a city in historic Palatinate, today in the German state
of Rhineland-Palatinate, just 8 km or 5 miles from the French border and
so 5 miles from Lorraine. A typical case of a historic family living in
Bavarian Palatinate but having roots to Lorraine.
Lutz
--
Ancestors from Germany?
http://www.lutz-genealogy.de
-
Christopher Jahn
Re: A history lesson.
"roro" <roro@test.com> wrote in news:76NTd.62096$wc.4469@trnddc07:
Thanks for the link to the great map!
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html
Knowledge is convoluted conviction.
Thanks for the link to the great map!
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html
Knowledge is convoluted conviction.
-
Lutz Engelhardt
Re: A history lesson.
Here is a link to an 1891 map of Southern Germany
http://www.rollintl.com/roll/grs1891map.htm
The map shows that Zweibrucken is in Palatinate Bavaria. Based on the map I
would say that your ancestor was from Palatinate Bavaria and not from
Alsace-Lorraine.
Thanks a lot for this link. Although this obviously American made map
shows some errors (Neiderbronn should be Niederbronn, today
Niederbronn-les-Bains and some other errors and no umlauts) it is very
interesting. It even shows my place of birth (Künzelsau) and my place of
living (Langen)...
Thanks again,
Lutz
--
Ancestors from Germany?
http://www.lutz-genealogy.de
-
Brendan R. Wehrung
Re: A history lesson.
"James A. Doemer" (jdjunkmail@earthlink.net) writes:
Just to confuse the matter more, I've seen a ship list where an ancestor
from Baden was listed as coming from Bavaria. In this case I think the
purser just listed anybody of German descent as from the same place.
--
"Lutz Engelhardt" <mail@lutz-genealogy.de> wrote in message
news:421ef987$0$8795$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de...
roro wrote:
[snip]
Taking the subject of this thread for real may lead to a more
substantial answer to the original question....
Alsace was NOT part of France until 1871. In 870 (treaty of Meersen)
Alsace became part of the east-frankonian (so to speak German) empire.
From 925 on it belonged to the duchy of Schwaben (Swabia). In the
Westphalian peace treaty of 1648 France got the part of Alsace belonging
to Habsburg until then. King Louis XIV occupied Strassbourg, the capital
of Alsace and started the so called French-Palatinate war of heritage
1688-1697 (remember Palatinate for later) and finally during the French
Revolution Alsace came to France completely. 1871 until 1918 Alsace
became part of the German Empire and came back to France by the treaty
of Versaille 1919 where it belonged until today besides 4 years of
German occupation 1940-1944.
Now Palatinate: this German region neighbors Alsace-Lorraine and
belonged to the house of Wittelsbach since 1214. The house of
Wittelsbach reigned Bavaria and Palatinate for many centuries, which is
the historic reason for Palatinate being part of Bavaria many times in
the following centuries. 1329-1623 Palatinate was independant, but in
1623 it became part of Bavaria again. In 1816 it became officially a
Bavarian "Regierungsbezirk" until the 20th century.
Knowing all this it is much easier to understand, that it could be
possible to have ancestors coming from Alsace-Lorraine AND from Bavaria:
if the family was living right at the border there could be parts of the
family from one side (Alsace-Lorraine) and parts from the other side
(Bavaria). I had to deal with such a case just 2 weeks ago.
I don't say this is the only and true explanation, but knowing the
history of these areas helps to see the possibilities...
Lutz
First, let me thank everyone who answered my question. The person in
question was one Margaret Eva Funke who was born on the 3rd of January,
1832. She died on the 22nd of December, 1922 in Detroit, Michigan. It
appears that, from what Mr. Englhardt, and others, have wrote, and some
websites I've read, that it was indeed possible to be from both
Alsace-Lorraine, and Bavaria. Margaret came to the U.S. sometime around
1845.
Again, thanks to all!
Just to confuse the matter more, I've seen a ship list where an ancestor
from Baden was listed as coming from Bavaria. In this case I think the
purser just listed anybody of German descent as from the same place.
--
-
James A. Doemer
Re: A history lesson.
"Brendan R. Wehrung" <ck183@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:cvp6bp$37t$1@theodyn.ncf.ca...
Agreed. Of course, family research tends to be a confusing endeavor all
the way around. Census takers that can't spell, ancestors that liked to go
by their middle names, grandfathers that got pissed off at one branch of the
family and never bothered to tell his children or grandchildren that that
branch existed, and any number of other problems. There's been times when
I've sat and wondered if they had all conspired against ever being found.
news:cvp6bp$37t$1@theodyn.ncf.ca...
"James A. Doemer" (jdjunkmail@earthlink.net) writes:
"Lutz Engelhardt" <mail@lutz-genealogy.de> wrote in message
news:421ef987$0$8795$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de...
roro wrote:
[snip]
Taking the subject of this thread for real may lead to a more
substantial answer to the original question....
Alsace was NOT part of France until 1871. In 870 (treaty of Meersen)
Alsace became part of the east-frankonian (so to speak German) empire.
From 925 on it belonged to the duchy of Schwaben (Swabia). In the
Westphalian peace treaty of 1648 France got the part of Alsace
belonging
to Habsburg until then. King Louis XIV occupied Strassbourg, the
capital
of Alsace and started the so called French-Palatinate war of heritage
1688-1697 (remember Palatinate for later) and finally during the French
Revolution Alsace came to France completely. 1871 until 1918 Alsace
became part of the German Empire and came back to France by the treaty
of Versaille 1919 where it belonged until today besides 4 years of
German occupation 1940-1944.
Now Palatinate: this German region neighbors Alsace-Lorraine and
belonged to the house of Wittelsbach since 1214. The house of
Wittelsbach reigned Bavaria and Palatinate for many centuries, which is
the historic reason for Palatinate being part of Bavaria many times in
the following centuries. 1329-1623 Palatinate was independant, but in
1623 it became part of Bavaria again. In 1816 it became officially a
Bavarian "Regierungsbezirk" until the 20th century.
Knowing all this it is much easier to understand, that it could be
possible to have ancestors coming from Alsace-Lorraine AND from
Bavaria:
if the family was living right at the border there could be parts of
the
family from one side (Alsace-Lorraine) and parts from the other side
(Bavaria). I had to deal with such a case just 2 weeks ago.
I don't say this is the only and true explanation, but knowing the
history of these areas helps to see the possibilities...
Lutz
First, let me thank everyone who answered my question. The person in
question was one Margaret Eva Funke who was born on the 3rd of January,
1832. She died on the 22nd of December, 1922 in Detroit, Michigan. It
appears that, from what Mr. Englhardt, and others, have wrote, and some
websites I've read, that it was indeed possible to be from both
Alsace-Lorraine, and Bavaria. Margaret came to the U.S. sometime
around
1845.
Again, thanks to all!
Just to confuse the matter more, I've seen a ship list where an ancestor
from Baden was listed as coming from Bavaria. In this case I think the
purser just listed anybody of German descent as from the same place.
--
Agreed. Of course, family research tends to be a confusing endeavor all
the way around. Census takers that can't spell, ancestors that liked to go
by their middle names, grandfathers that got pissed off at one branch of the
family and never bothered to tell his children or grandchildren that that
branch existed, and any number of other problems. There's been times when
I've sat and wondered if they had all conspired against ever being found.
-
saki
Re: A history lesson.
"roro" <roro@test.com> wrote in news:76NTd.62096$wc.4469@trnddc07:
Entirely possible, but Karolina left for the U.S. with her husband Ludwig
Muller in 1842.
He was from Fischbach but they married in her home town. At that point in
time would Zweibrucken still have been Bavarian in national allegiance?
Great map, thanks!
----
saki@ucla.edu
Here is a link to an 1891 map of Southern Germany
http://www.rollintl.com/roll/grs1891map.htm
The map shows that Zweibrucken is in Palatinate Bavaria. Based on the
map I would say that your ancestor was from Palatinate Bavaria and not
from Alsace-Lorraine.
Entirely possible, but Karolina left for the U.S. with her husband Ludwig
Muller in 1842.
He was from Fischbach but they married in her home town. At that point in
time would Zweibrucken still have been Bavarian in national allegiance?
Great map, thanks!
----
saki@ucla.edu
-
Lutz Engelhardt
Re: A history lesson.
Entirely possible, but Karolina left for the U.S. with her husband Ludwig
Muller in 1842.
He was from Fischbach but they married in her home town. At that point in
time would Zweibrucken still have been Bavarian in national allegiance?
Sorry, I don't want to be rude, but I am wondering whether you remember
things for more than 12 hours. Just a bit more than 24 hours ago I sat
down for quite a while and tried to put together the historic and
geographic facts of the area of Zweibrücken and I wrote:
1329-1623 Palatinate was independant, but in 1623 it became part of
Bavaria again. In 1816 it became officially a Bavarian
"Regierungsbezirk" until the 20th century.
Isn't 1842 in the time between 1816 and the 20th century? Wasn't the
answer given 24 hours before you asked the question? Sometimes when
doing genealogy it needs more than just reading the first line of a text
which is longer than this first line.
Couldn't swallow this without any noise, sorry 'bout that,
Lutz
--
Ancestors from Germany?
http://www.lutz-genealogy.de
-
saki
Re: A history lesson.
Lutz Engelhardt <mail@lutz-genealogy.de> wrote in
news:422112b9$0$22141$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de:
My apologies. You did indeed give the answer and I didn't pay proper
attention.
I'm sorry.
----
saki@ucla.edu
news:422112b9$0$22141$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de:
Isn't 1842 in the time between 1816 and the 20th century? Wasn't the
answer given 24 hours before you asked the question? Sometimes when
doing genealogy it needs more than just reading the first line of a text
which is longer than this first line.
Couldn't swallow this without any noise, sorry 'bout that,
My apologies. You did indeed give the answer and I didn't pay proper
attention.
I'm sorry.
----
saki@ucla.edu
-
Charani
Re: A history lesson.
On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:27:31 GMT, James A. Doemer wrote:
You mean you haven't heard the ghostly chortling??
)
Agreed. Of course, family research tends to be a confusing endeavor all
the way around. Census takers that can't spell, ancestors that liked to go
by their middle names, grandfathers that got pissed off at one branch of the
family and never bothered to tell his children or grandchildren that that
branch existed, and any number of other problems. There's been times when
I've sat and wondered if they had all conspired against ever being found.
You mean you haven't heard the ghostly chortling??
-
James A. Doemer
Re: A history lesson.
"Charani" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:38dnv1F5ltfp1U1@individual.net...
Hahahaha! Yes, it is sometimes quite loud in fact. :c) Times like
yesterday makes it all worthwhile though. I found a Grandson of my Great,
Great, Grandaunt, which makes him my 2nd Cousin, twice removed. His house
is about two hours away, so I drove up to see him yesterday after some
telephone conversations over the last month or so. He is 88 years old, but
still had his mental facilities about him. He has seen some really rough
times. His wife and twin sons were killed in an auto accident back in the
early 1940's, and he never remarried. He talked for a long time about
family history and I'm jotting down notes trying to keep up. Then he
takes me upstairs and shows me a closet full of portraits and old photo
albums, much of which of of my family. My Great Great Grandfather ran a
Candy Store/Ice Cream Parlor/Cigar Emporium on Michigan Avenue in Detroit in
the early 1900's. This guy had dozens of pictures of the Candy Store, my
Great, Great, Grandparents, and several other members of the family that I
didn't previously have pictures of. He had two large portraits of
Josephine (My Great-Great Grandaunt) and her husband on their wedding day in
1883, which were in large ornate wooden frames. Then he tells me,
practically in tears, that he had no one to leave any of it to, so if I
wanted it, I could have it all. At first I argued with him, I didn't
really feel right about hauling the poor guys memories off. But he said if
I didn't take them, the state would do whatever the State of Michigan does
with people's stuff when they die without heirs. Probably sell what they
could and trash the rest. So I ended up taking all of it. I've spent the
better part of the remainder of yesterday and this morning identifying and
cataloging everything. Among them I found a portrait of my 3rd Great
Grandmother! It's so nice to finally put a face on so many of the ghosts
that have been chortling at me. :c)
news:38dnv1F5ltfp1U1@individual.net...
On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:27:31 GMT, James A. Doemer wrote:
Agreed. Of course, family research tends to be a confusing endeavor
all
the way around. Census takers that can't spell, ancestors that liked
to go
by their middle names, grandfathers that got pissed off at one branch of
the
family and never bothered to tell his children or grandchildren that
that
branch existed, and any number of other problems. There's been times
when
I've sat and wondered if they had all conspired against ever being
found.
You mean you haven't heard the ghostly chortling??)
Hahahaha! Yes, it is sometimes quite loud in fact. :c) Times like
yesterday makes it all worthwhile though. I found a Grandson of my Great,
Great, Grandaunt, which makes him my 2nd Cousin, twice removed. His house
is about two hours away, so I drove up to see him yesterday after some
telephone conversations over the last month or so. He is 88 years old, but
still had his mental facilities about him. He has seen some really rough
times. His wife and twin sons were killed in an auto accident back in the
early 1940's, and he never remarried. He talked for a long time about
family history and I'm jotting down notes trying to keep up. Then he
takes me upstairs and shows me a closet full of portraits and old photo
albums, much of which of of my family. My Great Great Grandfather ran a
Candy Store/Ice Cream Parlor/Cigar Emporium on Michigan Avenue in Detroit in
the early 1900's. This guy had dozens of pictures of the Candy Store, my
Great, Great, Grandparents, and several other members of the family that I
didn't previously have pictures of. He had two large portraits of
Josephine (My Great-Great Grandaunt) and her husband on their wedding day in
1883, which were in large ornate wooden frames. Then he tells me,
practically in tears, that he had no one to leave any of it to, so if I
wanted it, I could have it all. At first I argued with him, I didn't
really feel right about hauling the poor guys memories off. But he said if
I didn't take them, the state would do whatever the State of Michigan does
with people's stuff when they die without heirs. Probably sell what they
could and trash the rest. So I ended up taking all of it. I've spent the
better part of the remainder of yesterday and this morning identifying and
cataloging everything. Among them I found a portrait of my 3rd Great
Grandmother! It's so nice to finally put a face on so many of the ghosts
that have been chortling at me. :c)