Displaying Old American Flag

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Nicole

Displaying Old American Flag

Legg inn av Nicole » 13 jan 2005 17:12:35

I have the flag that was draped over my g-grandfather's casket when he died
in 1945. For the past 60 years, it's been stored in a box which is now
falling apart. The flag is dusty and I'd like to remove the dust (probably
damp cloth will do that) and display it properly. Problem is the cases I
see in stores look rather big for this flag. I'm not sure of it's exact
size unless I unfold it. I do know it only has 48 stars if that gives some
indication as to it's size.

My questions are: Is it okay to unfold it in order to measure it? (Not
sure of proper flag etiquette) Is this flag smaller than those made today
and thus I'd need a smaller display case?

Nicole in NC

Dave Hinz

Re: Displaying Old American Flag

Legg inn av Dave Hinz » 13 jan 2005 19:33:30

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:12:35 GMT, Nicole <knb@devnull.nc.rr.com> wrote:
I have the flag that was draped over my g-grandfather's casket when he died
in 1945. For the past 60 years, it's been stored in a box which is now
falling apart. The flag is dusty and I'd like to remove the dust (probably
damp cloth will do that) and display it properly. Problem is the cases I
see in stores look rather big for this flag. I'm not sure of it's exact
size unless I unfold it. I do know it only has 48 stars if that gives some
indication as to it's size.

Not really, 50-star flags come in many sizes so it's reasonable to think
that 48-star flags did as well.
My questions are: Is it okay to unfold it in order to measure it? (Not
sure of proper flag etiquette) Is this flag smaller than those made today
and thus I'd need a smaller display case?

As far as the proper way to fold and handle the flag, maybe your local
VFW post would be the best place to get help and advice? They are the
correct place to go for proper disposal of flags, so I would think that
they are a resource you could use. As a side benefit, there's a chance
that they might have known or have information about your Grandfather.
They've probably also dealt with "how do I display..." questions.
Triangular boxes with glass on the front seem to be popular for this.

If nothing else, find out when they meet, ask some questions, buy 'em
a beer or two, and thank them.

Dave Hinz

Bruce Remick

Re: Displaying Old American Flag

Legg inn av Bruce Remick » 13 jan 2005 19:34:43

"Nicole" <knb@devnull.nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:T5xFd.19214$dt3.1506333@twister.southeast.rr.com...
I have the flag that was draped over my g-grandfather's casket when he
died
in 1945. For the past 60 years, it's been stored in a box which is now
falling apart. The flag is dusty and I'd like to remove the dust
(probably
damp cloth will do that) and display it properly. Problem is the cases I
see in stores look rather big for this flag. I'm not sure of it's exact
size unless I unfold it. I do know it only has 48 stars if that gives
some
indication as to it's size.

My questions are: Is it okay to unfold it in order to measure it? (Not
sure of proper flag etiquette) Is this flag smaller than those made today
and thus I'd need a smaller display case?

Nicole in NC


You would likely have to unfold it in order to clean it. There's certainly
no breach of flag etiquette to unfold it. Many would consider it more
appropriate to unfold and display their memorial flag than to leave it
stored away in a box in a closet. Others would prefer to display their flag
folded in a protective triangular frame as a cherished family heirloom.

If and when you do decide to clean it, and if you find the flag to be
fragile and/or damaged, your best bet would be to have it professionally
conserved, mounted and framed in whatever method suits you.

We arranged for my wife's mother to receive a flag that had flown over the
US Capitol on the month & day of her birth for her 90th birthday. Rather
than storing it as a keepsake, she insisted that we fly it outside for as
long as it and she lasts.

Bruce

Robert Heiling

Re: Displaying Old American Flag

Legg inn av Robert Heiling » 13 jan 2005 19:44:31

Nicole wrote:

I have the flag that was draped over my g-grandfather's casket when he died
in 1945. For the past 60 years, it's been stored in a box which is now
falling apart. The flag is dusty and I'd like to remove the dust (probably
damp cloth will do that) and display it properly. Problem is the cases I
see in stores look rather big for this flag. I'm not sure of it's exact
size unless I unfold it. I do know it only has 48 stars if that gives some
indication as to it's size.

My questions are: Is it okay to unfold it in order to measure it? (Not
sure of proper flag etiquette) Is this flag smaller than those made today
and thus I'd need a smaller display case?

Nicole in NC

I've been waiting to see it suggested, but nobody has suggested the obvious of
using Google so far. Do so and you will find all the information you are asking
about. One sample is at the following site, if you can stand the atrocious
flashing at the top:
<http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfb_disp7a.html>

HTH
Bob

singhals

Re: Displaying Old American Flag

Legg inn av singhals » 13 jan 2005 21:05:03

Nicole wrote:

I have the flag that was draped over my g-grandfather's casket when he died
in 1945. For the past 60 years, it's been stored in a box which is now
falling apart. The flag is dusty and I'd like to remove the dust (probably
damp cloth will do that) and display it properly. Problem is the cases I

Check your local, expensive, dry-cleaner; many of them clean flags free
of charge.

see in stores look rather big for this flag. I'm not sure of it's exact
size unless I unfold it. I do know it only has 48 stars if that gives some
indication as to it's size.

Flags come and came in a variety of sizes. Ask a funeral home what size
is used for the purpose these days.

My questions are: Is it okay to unfold it in order to measure it? (Not

Sure.

sure of proper flag etiquette) Is this flag smaller than those made today
and thus I'd need a smaller display case?

If it was stored in a box, chances are it was folded to fit the box,
which would probably mean, folded into a rectangle. If the flag is
re-folded into that triangle shape, it's gonna be bigger than you think.
OTOH, if it were stored in the trangle shape, you'll know exactly how
big it is. (g) You can always tote it to the store that sells the
display cases and ask to try-for-size... course, if it fits, you gotta
buy the thing...

Cheryl

Charlene Charette

Re: Displaying Old American Flag

Legg inn av Charlene Charette » 15 jan 2005 06:00:03

Nicole wrote:

I have the flag that was draped over my g-grandfather's casket when he died
in 1945. For the past 60 years, it's been stored in a box which is now
falling apart. The flag is dusty and I'd like to remove the dust (probably
damp cloth will do that) and display it properly. Problem is the cases I
see in stores look rather big for this flag. I'm not sure of it's exact
size unless I unfold it. I do know it only has 48 stars if that gives some
indication as to it's size.

My questions are: Is it okay to unfold it in order to measure it? (Not
sure of proper flag etiquette) Is this flag smaller than those made today
and thus I'd need a smaller display case?

Nicole in NC

I don't know much about the etiquette involved, but I do know a little
bit about antique fabrics. I'm guessing the storage box wasn't archival
quality. Therefore, it may have damaged or weakened the fibers. Also,
fabrics shouldn't be folded for storage; the fibers weaken at the folds.
So there is a possibility that it could fall apart at the folds if you
try to unfold it.

I'd suggest you contact a local museum with a textiles department and
get their advice on cleaning, handling, and storing/displaying the flag.

--Charlene


--
THE COW
The cow is of the bovine ilk;
One end is moo, the other, milk.
--Ogden Nash

email perronnelle at earthlink . net

William Barfieldsr

Re: Displaying Old American Flag

Legg inn av William Barfieldsr » 19 jan 2005 18:21:02

"Charlene Charette" <neitherhere@northere.com> wrote in message news:Or1Gd.7247$pZ4.1274@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Nicole wrote:

I have the flag that was draped over my g-grandfather's casket when he died
in 1945. For the past 60 years, it's been stored in a box which is now
falling apart. The flag is dusty and I'd like to remove the dust (probably
damp cloth will do that) and display it properly. Problem is the cases I
see in stores look rather big for this flag. I'm not sure of it's exact
size unless I unfold it. I do know it only has 48 stars if that gives some
indication as to it's size.

My questions are: Is it okay to unfold it in order to measure it? (Not
sure of proper flag etiquette) Is this flag smaller than those made today
and thus I'd need a smaller display case?

Nicole in NC

I don't know much about the etiquette involved, but I do know a little
bit about antique fabrics. I'm guessing the storage box wasn't archival
quality. Therefore, it may have damaged or weakened the fibers. Also,
fabrics shouldn't be folded for storage; the fibers weaken at the folds.
So there is a possibility that it could fall apart at the folds if you
try to unfold it.

I'd suggest you contact a local museum with a textiles department and
get their advice on cleaning, handling, and storing/displaying the flag.

--Charlene
email perronnelle at earthlink . net


I agree with Charlene on contacting a museum for advice on cleaning and displaying. The flag you have is probably a cotton dyed fiber and could stain easily and fade if not stored properly.
Just a tid bit of information, ALL United States flags have the same ratio of length to width whether they are 50 foot flags or 6 inch flags. I would bet if it was on a casket it was a 5' X 8' flag. This is the size that covered my father.
--
William Barfieldsr

William Barfieldsr

Re: Displaying Old American Flag

Legg inn av William Barfieldsr » 19 jan 2005 19:21:02

"William Barfieldsr" <wbarfieldsr@grandecom.net> wrote in message news:10ut5fh4k8fn70f@corp.supernews.com...


"Charlene Charette" <neitherhere@northere.com> wrote in message news:Or1Gd.7247$pZ4.1274@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Nicole wrote:

I have the flag that was draped over my g-grandfather's casket when he died
in 1945. For the past 60 years, it's been stored in a box which is now
falling apart. The flag is dusty and I'd like to remove the dust (probably
damp cloth will do that) and display it properly. Problem is the cases I
see in stores look rather big for this flag. I'm not sure of it's exact
size unless I unfold it. I do know it only has 48 stars if that gives some
indication as to it's size.

My questions are: Is it okay to unfold it in order to measure it? (Not
sure of proper flag etiquette) Is this flag smaller than those made today
and thus I'd need a smaller display case?

Nicole in NC

I don't know much about the etiquette involved, but I do know a little
bit about antique fabrics. I'm guessing the storage box wasn't archival
quality. Therefore, it may have damaged or weakened the fibers. Also,
fabrics shouldn't be folded for storage; the fibers weaken at the folds.
So there is a possibility that it could fall apart at the folds if you
try to unfold it.

I'd suggest you contact a local museum with a textiles department and
get their advice on cleaning, handling, and storing/displaying the flag.

--Charlene
email perronnelle at earthlink . net


I agree with Charlene on contacting a museum for advice on cleaning and displaying. The flag you have is probably a cotton dyed fiber and could stain easily and fade if not stored properly.
Just a tid bit of information, ALL United States flags have the same ratio of length to width whether they are 50 foot flags or 6 inch flags. I would bet if it was on a casket it was a 5' X 8' flag. This is the size that covered my father.

There are box frames disigned to display your flag in it's folded condition. I would have a professional framer do the actual work and still check with a museum.
--
William Barfieldsr

Scaly Lizard

Re: Displaying Old American Flag

Legg inn av Scaly Lizard » 20 jan 2005 11:54:47

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:12:35 GMT, "Nicole" <knb@devnull.nc.rr.com>
wrote:

I have the flag that was draped over my g-grandfather's casket when he died
in 1945. For the past 60 years, it's been stored in a box which is now
falling apart. The flag is dusty and I'd like to remove the dust (probably
damp cloth will do that) and display it properly. Problem is the cases I
see in stores look rather big for this flag. I'm not sure of it's exact
size unless I unfold it. I do know it only has 48 stars if that gives some
indication as to it's size.

My questions are: Is it okay to unfold it in order to measure it? (Not
sure of proper flag etiquette) Is this flag smaller than those made today
and thus I'd need a smaller display case?

Nicole in NC

Hi Nicole,

You can go to a museum and pay them a bunch of money
to do a great job, or you can learn to do a great job yourself.

First, try not to handle the flag again until you get a pair
of document-handling gloves, at the least lint-free cotton
gloves. And please don't clean it with a damp cloth, lol.

Second, you need to consider: what do you want to do
with the flag? Do you wish to display it, or do you wish
to store the flag for long-term archival integrity?

What a good conservator would do first is to conduct
interviews to determine the storage history of the flag.
Who had it, from when to when, and where in their
house did they store it? A fabric stored in an uninsulated
attic would be subject to wide swings in temperature,
making the fabric brittle. If it was stored in Aunt Flora's
cellar from 1975 - 1995, then changes in humidity might
have favored the growth of one fungus over another.

You can conduct these interviews yourself. Find out
who had the flag, from when to when, and if someone
says "it was in my cellar", ask if there were any floods,
or if the cellar was cool in summer, or if it was dry those
years. If you know what stresses the fabric has been
subjected to in the past, you can make a better decision
about what stresses to avoid in caring for it.

Once you have a pair of gloves to handle it, inspect the
folded flag for damage beyond routine fading on exposed
faces. If you see evidence of worms, moths, fungus,
water stains, breaks in the cloth near folding creases or
other damage, you will want to have the flag cleaned
before storing or mounting it. If it's just a bit dusty, then
a can of compressed air is all you need, and don't be
afraid of unfolding it.

If there are visible tears in the fabric along the folding
creases, do not unfold it, but call around to large museums
and universities if you want to save it. Otherwise, go to
the best clothing cleaner you can drive to, and ask them
if they clean flags. If so, then produce your flag, wearing
your gloves, and provide gloves for the cleaner to wear
while examining the stains. Do this for the four other-best
cleaners you can get to. Why the gloves? Because then
the cleaners will know you mean business, and the good
ones will try to help you and the posers will immediately try
to gouge you. You'll soon know which is which, with some
experience. THEN go to a local museum and ask for their
assessment. If, after that, you feel comfortable with one
of the cleaners, then go with them. But if you can afford
the museum's price, then do that.

If you want to store it, you will want to store it flat rather
than folded, to minimize stresses on the fibers that make
up the flag. You'd want it air-tight, light-tight, and acid-free.
One can buy a wide range of frames and cases for storing
flags, from $50 to $50,000. You can even get them filled
with inert gases to arrest many kinds of organic decay,
but that's pricey. Most importantly, avoid wooden cases.
Wood and textiles don't mix. Essential oils leach out of
woods over time, which is why cedar smells nice for years
after it is cut. But these oils will destroy textiles.

For storage, your best bet is a stainless steel case large
enough for your flag to lay flat. If lined at all, you'd want
it lined with cotton or a polyester-cotton blend, and an inner
lining of acid-free archival tissue. Not only that, but you'll
want to store the case wherever you get the most even
levels of temperature and humidity... ideally in the living
room, lol. You can get cases with gizmos to regulate the
humidity or even the temperature of the flag, but again
that's pricey. Wherever you store it, if you store it, avoid
basements and attics, which see the greatest flucuations
of temperature and humidity, respectively.

What none of these cases can do is prevent the effects
of light on the cloth, which will degrade it over time. If you
display it, obviously keep it out of sunlight, but almost any
light will damage textiles over long periods of time. Sunlight
and flourescent lights are the most damaging, but even
incandescent lights will damage fabrics, given enough time.
It will degrade more quickly if it is displayed flat than folded,
for obvious reasons. It's a real tradeoff you're facing there...

* If you display it folded in a triangular or rectangular case,
bond stresses will weaken the fabric along the folds, but
light will only damage the face that is showing.

* If you display it flat, light will fade the entire surface, but
stresses on the cloth will be reduced.

It's a question that i don't know the answer to.

But i do know that your choice of case or mounting will
determine the preservation of the flag, on a range from
decades to centuries. Using glass on a display creates
electrostatic forces on the inside of the glass, which can
break apart the individual fibers of the cloth. Use plexiglass
instead, which eliminates electrostatic damage and adds
protection from ultraviolet light, very damaging to textiles.
But plexiglass, like all plastics, leaches polymers, so should
never be in direct contact with the fabric.

The best enclosure, should you happen to want to do it
yourself, would be a rectangle of plexiglass, 2 inches longer
and 2 inches wider than your flag, overlaid with acid-free
archival paper or cardboard. Attach the plexiglass to a
wooden frame, a heavily polyurethaned wooden frame.
Lay your flag on top of it, attach at the top, overlay it with
another sheet of plexiglass, not touching the fabric, then
you can add an outer layer of real glass, to give it the 'look'
that glass gives to things. Of course, this is three-layer
framing, which is tricky, so you might want to read up on
it, and practice on a few smaller frames before tackling
your flag job.

The best advice i can give you: Buy what you can afford,
but if it's important to you, then save up for what you want.
And if it's what you *really* want, then learn up on it and do it.

SL

D. Stussy

Re: Displaying Old American Flag

Legg inn av D. Stussy » 21 jan 2005 00:00:00

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, Nicole wrote:
I have the flag that was draped over my g-grandfather's casket when he died
in 1945. For the past 60 years, it's been stored in a box which is now
falling apart. The flag is dusty and I'd like to remove the dust (probably
damp cloth will do that) and display it properly. Problem is the cases I
see in stores look rather big for this flag. I'm not sure of it's exact
size unless I unfold it. I do know it only has 48 stars if that gives some
indication as to it's size.

My questions are: Is it okay to unfold it in order to measure it? (Not
sure of proper flag etiquette) Is this flag smaller than those made today
and thus I'd need a smaller display case?

Etiquette: Funeral flags do NOT get unfolded, ever.

Gloria Chapin

Ancestry Immigration Lookup, Please

Legg inn av Gloria Chapin » 02 feb 2005 01:30:04

This is the first time I've asked SKS to do a lookup for me:

I entered the following:
Mary McManus, Scotland, 1870-1880

It said there were 6 entries in their 1851-1891 Immigration Records. I
would love to have details about these various Marys.

I'm really hung up on her--my great-grandmother, as she appears to have been
born in 1871, came to the US in 1880, in time to miss the Census, and was
married about 1890, so I have her married name and forward from there, but
no idea as to her parents' names or where they originated.

I would be most grateful--I have been chasing this elusive ancestor for
about 8 years. I don't want to subscribe as she is the ONLY one who
immigrated within that time frame.

Gloria Chapin
Barrie, Ontario

Tara

Re: Ancestry Immigration Lookup, Please

Legg inn av Tara » 02 feb 2005 13:52:53

I got 8 hits when I tried searching. None seem to match what you already
know, but if any look interesting to you, let me know and I'll send the
image,

New York Passenger Lists, 1851-1891

Name Arrival Date Estimated Birth Year Gender Port of Departure Place of
Origin Destination Ship Name
Mary Mcmanus 19 Sep 1870 1867 Female Glasgow, Scotland and Moville,
Ireland Great Britain United States of America Columbia
Mary Mcmanus 6 May 1871 1848 Female Glasgow, Scotland and Moville, Ireland
Ireland United States of America Caledonia
Mary Mcmanus 13 Jun 1881 1862 Female Liverpool, England and Queenstown,
Ireland Scotland United States of America Celtic
Mary Mcmanus 1 Jun 1881 1880 Female Glasgow, Scotland and Moville, Ireland
Ireland United States of America Circassia
Mary Mcmanus 3 Jun 1890 1873 Female Glasgow, Scotland and Moville, Ireland
Ireland United States of America Circassia
Mary A Mcmanus 6 Jun 1870 1852 Female Glasgow, Scotland Ireland United
States of America Iowa
Mary A Mcmanus 17 Oct 1873 1869 Female Glasgow, Scotland Ireland United
States of America Victoria
Mary J Mcmanus 11 May 1881 1862 Female Glasgow, Scotland Ireland United
States of America Anchoria

--
Tara Larkin
Remove NO SPAM to reply by email.


"Gloria Chapin" <deke.buckie@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:v5KdnduXZaOJgp3fRVn-rQ@rogers.com...
This is the first time I've asked SKS to do a lookup for me:

I entered the following:
Mary McManus, Scotland, 1870-1880

It said there were 6 entries in their 1851-1891 Immigration Records. I
would love to have details about these various Marys.

I'm really hung up on her--my great-grandmother, as she appears to have
been
born in 1871, came to the US in 1880, in time to miss the Census, and was
married about 1890, so I have her married name and forward from there, but
no idea as to her parents' names or where they originated.

I would be most grateful--I have been chasing this elusive ancestor for
about 8 years. I don't want to subscribe as she is the ONLY one who
immigrated within that time frame.

Gloria Chapin
Barrie, Ontario


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