Help reading 1887 SC wedding registry: Jatho

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saki

Help reading 1887 SC wedding registry: Jatho

Legg inn av saki » 04 jan 2005 19:11:01

Could any of you folks with good eyes help me read this more clearly? The
wedding took place in 1887 in a mostly-German section of Charleston SC,
hence the Germanic-influenced script.

http://www.dumes.net/d/2_1886_jatho.jpg

This is the bottom half of a wedding registry page for my great-
grandfather and great-grandmother. His name is William George Jatho (here
Wilhelm Georg). My great-grandmother was known as Jennie Müller; here is
appears that her name is actually Jansine or Janine Ruth Julia (written
Jul. here) Müller.

Does anyone have a better feel for her first name? I can't quite read it.
She was usually indexed in census records as Jenny or Jennie but appears
in one as Jannie.

I'd also appreciate help with the witnesses at the far right of the row.
One is a Somebody Jatho, then a Somebody Melchers. I can't make out the
initial letter in both these first names.

It looks roughly like a Germanic uppercase K but it's not clear to me.
It's used a in a couple other instances further up this column on the
same page. We have a Theodore and Helena Melchers but it doesn't look
like either one. We have George, Eliza, Philip, Pauline Jatho but this
first name doesn't look like any of those.

The other witnesses look like "Joh. Christ. Rivers" and "Wilhelmina
Steffen", yes?

Any help would be most appreciated.

----
saki@ucla.edu

Donna

Re: Help reading 1887 SC wedding registry: Jatho

Legg inn av Donna » 05 jan 2005 01:16:39

I tried to decipher this, but I have no background in German script on old
documents and was completely stumped.

I did find a website that might be of help.

http://www.genealogienetz.de/misc/scripts.html

Donna in Texas
"saki" <saki@ucla.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns95D466213E5Fsakiuclaedu@169.232.47.140...
Could any of you folks with good eyes help me read this more clearly? The
wedding took place in 1887 in a mostly-German section of Charleston SC,
hence the Germanic-influenced script.

http://www.dumes.net/d/2_1886_jatho.jpg

This is the bottom half of a wedding registry page for my great-
grandfather and great-grandmother. His name is William George Jatho (here
Wilhelm Georg). My great-grandmother was known as Jennie Müller; here is
appears that her name is actually Jansine or Janine Ruth Julia (written
Jul. here) Müller.

Does anyone have a better feel for her first name? I can't quite read it.
She was usually indexed in census records as Jenny or Jennie but appears
in one as Jannie.

I'd also appreciate help with the witnesses at the far right of the row.
One is a Somebody Jatho, then a Somebody Melchers. I can't make out the
initial letter in both these first names.

It looks roughly like a Germanic uppercase K but it's not clear to me.
It's used a in a couple other instances further up this column on the
same page. We have a Theodore and Helena Melchers but it doesn't look
like either one. We have George, Eliza, Philip, Pauline Jatho but this
first name doesn't look like any of those.

The other witnesses look like "Joh. Christ. Rivers" and "Wilhelmina
Steffen", yes?

Any help would be most appreciated.

----
saki@ucla.edu

saki

Re: Help reading 1887 SC wedding registry: Jatho

Legg inn av saki » 05 jan 2005 02:01:03

"Donna" <donna.mr@comcast.net> wrote in
news:7padnam8lMN5rEbcRVn-hw@comcast.com:

I tried to decipher this, but I have no background in German script on
old documents and was completely stumped.

I did find a website that might be of help.

http://www.genealogienetz.de/misc/scripts.html

Thanks very much! I'll check the site and see whether I can figure it out
further.

----
saki@ucla.edu

Sharon

Re: Help reading 1887 SC wedding registry: Jatho

Legg inn av Sharon » 05 jan 2005 13:59:18

Why don't you post your question on soc.genealogy.german? I've seen other
people have success asking for help with old German script.
Sharon

"saki" <saki@ucla.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns95D466213E5Fsakiuclaedu@169.232.47.140...
Could any of you folks with good eyes help me read this more clearly? The
wedding took place in 1887 in a mostly-German section of Charleston SC,
hence the Germanic-influenced script.

http://www.dumes.net/d/2_1886_jatho.jpg

This is the bottom half of a wedding registry page for my great-
grandfather and great-grandmother. His name is William George Jatho (here
Wilhelm Georg). My great-grandmother was known as Jennie Müller; here is
appears that her name is actually Jansine or Janine Ruth Julia (written
Jul. here) Müller.

Does anyone have a better feel for her first name? I can't quite read it.
She was usually indexed in census records as Jenny or Jennie but appears
in one as Jannie.

I'd also appreciate help with the witnesses at the far right of the row.
One is a Somebody Jatho, then a Somebody Melchers. I can't make out the
initial letter in both these first names.

It looks roughly like a Germanic uppercase K but it's not clear to me.
It's used a in a couple other instances further up this column on the
same page. We have a Theodore and Helena Melchers but it doesn't look
like either one. We have George, Eliza, Philip, Pauline Jatho but this
first name doesn't look like any of those.

The other witnesses look like "Joh. Christ. Rivers" and "Wilhelmina
Steffen", yes?

Any help would be most appreciated.

----
saki@ucla.edu

singhals

Re: Help reading 1887 SC wedding registry: Jatho

Legg inn av singhals » 05 jan 2005 16:58:43

saki wrote:

Could any of you folks with good eyes help me read this more clearly? The
wedding took place in 1887 in a mostly-German section of Charleston SC,
hence the Germanic-influenced script.

http://www.dumes.net/d/2_1886_jatho.jpg

This is the bottom half of a wedding registry page for my great-
grandfather and great-grandmother. His name is William George Jatho (here
Wilhelm Georg). My great-grandmother was known as Jennie Müller; here is
appears that her name is actually Jansine or Janine Ruth Julia (written
Jul. here) Müller.


First word on that line begins with an I not a J -- note the many
descendors; it would be unlikely that he'd scrunch up one here. And, it
*could* be an honorific/descriptor, not a name (on one of the entries,
the lady is said to be widow whoever).

Does anyone have a better feel for her first name? I can't quite read it.
She was usually indexed in census records as Jenny or Jennie but appears
in one as Jannie.

I'd also appreciate help with the witnesses at the far right of the row.
One is a Somebody Jatho, then a Somebody Melchers. I can't make out the
initial letter in both these first names.

It rather looks like Karl Jatho, which would make it Karole Melchers?
Karhe? maybe? If it's Karole, that might point somewhere other than
Germany as an origin?

It looks roughly like a Germanic uppercase K but it's not clear to me.
It's used a in a couple other instances further up this column on the
same page. We have a Theodore and Helena Melchers but it doesn't look
like either one. We have George, Eliza, Philip, Pauline Jatho but this
first name doesn't look like any of those.

The other witnesses look like "Joh. Christ. Rivers" and "Wilhelmina
Steffen", yes?

Looks good to me. But ... isn't there supposed to be someone from the
Bride's side among the witnesses? Pity that "widow" doesn't look like
what's in front of Ruth ... :(


Cheryl

Huntersglenn

Re: Help reading 1887 SC wedding registry: Jatho

Legg inn av Huntersglenn » 05 jan 2005 21:47:13

saki wrote:

Following up my own post to correct myself: silly me, of course we have
a Karl Katho. I keep forgetting because that's not how he was indexed
(usually C.J. Jatho). He's Carl Julius Jatho, the younger brother of
the groom.

So that takes care of "Karl Jatho" in the witnesses column here for the
Jatho/Müller wedding:

http://www.dumes.net/d/2_1886_jatho.jpg

But I'm still stuck on the "Kxxxx Melchers" witness. Can anyone help
read this one?

And anyone else with thoughts about the bride's first name (starts with
a "J"?) would be most welcomed to chime in.

I'm no help at all with the bride's name, but I do have a question about
the witnesses on the groom's line -- how positive are you that it's two
different people and not just one person with the last name of Melchers?
The reason I'm asking is that whoever it was who wrote down the
information seems to have the tendency to squeeze in the different
witnesses on the same line, one on top of the other, as in the bride's
line. Looking at the rest of the page, I don't seem to see any instance
where two witnesses are written side by side on the same line.

I guess to put it simply, is it possible that the witness on the groom's
line is "XXXX Jatho XXXX Melchers" as opposed to being "XXXX Jatho" and
"XXXX Melchers?"

Cathy

saki

Re: Help reading 1887 SC wedding registry: Jatho

Legg inn av saki » 05 jan 2005 23:31:02

Huntersglenn <huntersglenn@cox.net> wrote in news:YiYCd.6986$Tf5.3512
@lakeread03:

I'm no help at all with the bride's name, but I do have a question about
the witnesses on the groom's line -- how positive are you that it's two
different people and not just one person with the last name of Melchers?

At this point, pretty positive, considering that Carl Jatho is an
identifiable part of the family.

The reason I'm asking is that whoever it was who wrote down the
information seems to have the tendency to squeeze in the different
witnesses on the same line, one on top of the other, as in the bride's
line. Looking at the rest of the page, I don't seem to see any instance
where two witnesses are written side by side on the same line.

Here's the upper half of the registry. Depending on the number of witnesses
they can be combined on one line as well as stacked within the column.

http://www.dumes.net/d/1_1886_jatho.jpg

My hunch is that it's still a second name on that same line, next to "Karl
Jatho", but I still can't read the first name.

----
saki@ucla.edu

Lutz Engelhardt

Re: Help reading 1887 SC wedding registry: Jatho

Legg inn av Lutz Engelhardt » 06 jan 2005 00:50:41

My hunch is that it's still a second name on that same line, next to "Karl
Jatho", but I still can't read the first name.

What about Käte Melcher (or Melchers, can't see the end of the name)?
Käte or Käthe is the short form of Katharina. A female as witness makes
sense, so both the groom and the bride had a male and a female witness.

I can't find the older messages of this thread, but it seems that the
first name of the bride was in question, too. It is Julia or Juliana
Müller. Just in case, this problem wasn't solved yet... ;-)

Good luck,

Lutz Engelhardt



--
Ancestors from Germany?
http://www.lutz-genealogy.de

saki

Re: Help reading 1887 SC wedding registry: Jatho

Legg inn av saki » 06 jan 2005 01:41:01

Lutz Engelhardt <mail@lutz-genealogy.de> wrote in
news:41dc7d51$0$27781$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de:

What about Käte Melcher (or Melchers, can't see the end of the name)?
Käte or Käthe is the short form of Katharina. A female as witness
makes sense, so both the groom and the bride had a male and a female
witness.

Makes sense, definitely. I can't find a Kate or Katherine Melchers though
in any of the South Carolina (or greater U.S.) census records for the
time, but perhaps I shouldn't let that be an influence.

I can't find the older messages of this thread, but it seems that the
first name of the bride was in question, too. It is Julia or Juliana
Müller. Just in case, this problem wasn't solved yet... ;-)

The bride was known to my family as Jennie. One of her middle names is
Julia. The first name still looks like "Jannine" to me. I don't have
church records for her yet (it would require travelling to South Carolina
to see them, a 3000 mile trip) so this is the first time I've encountered
her full name.

Her father is listed higher up on the page as L. (Louis) Müller; he was
the pastor of St. Matthews, where the marriage took place, so there's
some hope that church records are complete for his children.

Thanks for your help!

----
saki@ucla.edu

saki

Re: Help reading 1887 SC wedding registry: Jatho

Legg inn av saki » 06 jan 2005 01:51:01

"Lia Mack" <momofason@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1104969640.232504.123060
@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

http://www.dumes.net/d/2_1886_jatho.jpg

Hi,
While trying to understand your great-great-grandmother's first name I
noted her second name. Would you consider that her second name is
"KATH." - an abbreviation for Katharina. I often find that abbreviation
in the records I have been reading.

You know, you're right. After checking the notes of another family member
who did some work on this side of the family I see that her name was
reported to be Jennie Julia Catherine Müller. So it's "Kath", not Ruth.

Hope you're happy with this. I'll keep trying for those other two
names.

Perfect, thanks! Maybe the record really does simply say "Jennie", but it
sure looks as though there's an extra "n" near the end of the name....

----
saki@ucla.edu

Huntersglenn

Re: Help reading 1887 SC wedding registry: Jatho

Legg inn av Huntersglenn » 06 jan 2005 02:21:03

saki wrote:
Huntersglenn <huntersglenn@cox.net> wrote in news:YiYCd.6986$Tf5.3512
@lakeread03:

Here's the upper half of the registry. Depending on the number of witnesses
they can be combined on one line as well as stacked within the column.

http://www.dumes.net/d/1_1886_jatho.jpg

My hunch is that it's still a second name on that same line, next to "Karl
Jatho", but I still can't read the first name.


Ah, thanks for sharing that upper half. It does make it clearer <g>.

Sorry I can't help out with deciphering the names, but it sounds as if
you've got some good possibilities with them, as well as the bride's name.

It does look as if the bride's name is "Jennine", though.

Cathy

Lutz Engelhardt

Re: Help reading 1887 SC wedding registry: Jatho

Legg inn av Lutz Engelhardt » 06 jan 2005 03:49:20

reported to be Jennie Julia Catherine Müller. So it's "Kath", not Ruth.
Perfect, thanks! Maybe the record really does simply say "Jennie", but it
sure looks as though there's an extra "n" near the end of the name....

As I already pointed out in an earlier message today I unfortunately
don't know the messages before, so I didn't realize the problems you
have to decipher this bride's first names.

I'm sorry to say, but I can't see any Jennie there. For me this is
Jasmin. The a is written in German handwriting, the rest in Latin. At
that time you had this mixture quite often. So for me the bride's full
name in this document was Jasmin Katharina Julia Müller.

Have fun,

Lutz Engelhardt



--
Ancestors from Germany?
http://www.lutz-genealogy.de

Bob Melson

Re: Help reading 1887 SC wedding registry: Jatho

Legg inn av Bob Melson » 06 jan 2005 05:20:10

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 00:36:43 +0000, saki wrote:

Lutz Engelhardt <mail@lutz-genealogy.de> wrote in
news:41dc7d51$0$27781$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de:

What about Käte Melcher (or Melchers, can't see the end of the name)?
Käte or Käthe is the short form of Katharina. A female as witness
makes sense, so both the groom and the bride had a male and a female
witness.


<snip>

saki@ucla.edu

My $0.02:

After enlarging the page to an uncomfortable size [ ;-) ], the bride's
name is definitely Jasmin. First questionable witness name _appears_ to
be Kaethe (I'm too lazy to look for the umlaut-a): compare the "a" in
Karl with the 2d letter of the next name; that speck to the upper right
is the umlaut; the next character is the Germanic "t" and the last is an
"e". On line below, 2d name _appears_ to be Wilhelmina Steffen.

HTH

Bob Melson


--
Robert G. Melson | Nothing is more terrible than
Rio Grande MicroSolutions | ignorance in action.
El Paso, Texas | Goethe
melsonr(at)earthlink(dot)net

Bluegene

Re: Help reading 1887 SC wedding registry: Jatho

Legg inn av Bluegene » 06 jan 2005 05:43:48

I agree with Bob. Bride's first name is Jasmin (even tho the J looks
to be an I; call it handwriting quirks).

Henry

"Bob Melson" <melsonr@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.01.06.04.18.41.157736@earthlink.net...
After enlarging the page to an uncomfortable size [ ;-) ], the
bride's
name is definitely Jasmin. First questionable witness name
_appears_ to
be Kaethe (I'm too lazy to look for the umlaut-a): compare the "a"
in
Karl with the 2d letter of the next name; that speck to the upper
right
is the umlaut; the next character is the Germanic "t" and the last
is an
"e". On line below, 2d name _appears_ to be Wilhelmina Steffen.

HTH

Bob Melson

saki

Re: Help reading 1887 SC wedding registry: Jatho

Legg inn av saki » 06 jan 2005 19:21:02

"Lia Mack" <momofason@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1104976114.823275.255960
@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

Isn't this an index?? Do you have the chance to read the original
document? You have the date and place!
Just an idea.

I believe this is the church registry itself. The records are neither
online nor filmed but are kept at St. Matthews German Lutheran Church in
Charleston, South Carolina.

My great-great-grandfather was Louis Müller, a pastor at that church for
fifty years in the last half of the nineteenth century. One of the archive
volunteers offered to make me a copy of this marriage entry for me because
I live 3000 miles away and can't get to the archives (at least not yet!).
But I hope to go there at some point and see if the church records have
other entries of interest.

----
saki@ucla.edu

saki

Re: Help reading 1887 SC wedding registry: Jatho

Legg inn av saki » 06 jan 2005 19:30:02

"Bluegene" <hfbrownl@bellsouth.net> wrote in news:vl3Dd.18666$6i.11617
@bignews6.bellsouth.net:

I agree with Bob. Bride's first name is Jasmin (even tho the J looks
to be an I; call it handwriting quirks).

Henry

"Bob Melson" <melsonr@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.01.06.04.18.41.157736@earthlink.net...
After enlarging the page to an uncomfortable size [ ;-) ], the
bride's
name is definitely Jasmin....

I appreciate everyone's help with this. It's a surprise to me because her
first name didn't appear that way in later family documents (not even in
her Chicago death certificate from 1934)---she was always Jennie---and I'm
not used to seeing Jasmin in a German context, but your suggestions are
convincing.

I see the second witness as Kaethe Melchers, just as Bob suggested.

Many thanks to you all.

----
saki@ucla.edu

Roy Johnson

Re: Help reading 1887 SC wedding registry: Jatho

Legg inn av Roy Johnson » 06 feb 2005 23:23:09

This may not be relevant at all, but I came across the surname Jatho in my
research on my wife's Schnake family. The name is rare in Germany and seems
to be concentrated in the area north of Cassel (Kassel). I found them
particularly in Dransfeld.

There are Schnake/Jatho descendents in Chile, South America, where I came
across the name while corresponding with Chilean Schnakes, of whom there are
quite a few.

I have some files on Jatho if they would be of interest. None seems to
connect with your area, however.

Roy Johnson

Researching Schnake/Schnacke in Kreis Minden, Westfalen, and worldwide
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~schnake


"saki" <saki@ucla.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns95D59257655B7sakiuclaedu@169.232.47.140...
Huntersglenn <huntersglenn@cox.net> wrote in news:YiYCd.6986$Tf5.3512
@lakeread03:

I'm no help at all with the bride's name, but I do have a question about
the witnesses on the groom's line -- how positive are you that it's two
different people and not just one person with the last name of Melchers?

At this point, pretty positive, considering that Carl Jatho is an
identifiable part of the family.

The reason I'm asking is that whoever it was who wrote down the
information seems to have the tendency to squeeze in the different
witnesses on the same line, one on top of the other, as in the bride's
line. Looking at the rest of the page, I don't seem to see any instance
where two witnesses are written side by side on the same line.

Here's the upper half of the registry. Depending on the number of
witnesses
they can be combined on one line as well as stacked within the column.

http://www.dumes.net/d/1_1886_jatho.jpg

My hunch is that it's still a second name on that same line, next to "Karl
Jatho", but I still can't read the first name.

----
saki@ucla.edu

saki

Re: Help reading 1887 SC wedding registry: Jatho

Legg inn av saki » 07 feb 2005 04:07:25

Roy Johnson wrote:
This may not be relevant at all, but I came across the surname Jatho
in my
research on my wife's Schnake family. The name is rare in Germany and
seems
to be concentrated in the area north of Cassel (Kassel). I found them
particularly in Dransfeld.

I've encountered your queries on the net and have been intrigued; tried
to email you but the mail bounced.

There are Schnake/Jatho descendents in Chile, South America, where I
came
across the name while corresponding with Chilean Schnakes, of whom
there are
quite a few.

I have some files on Jatho if they would be of interest. None seems
to
connect with your area, however.

I suspect you're right but was nevertheless intrigued by other Jathos
out there. If a previous clue is correct that the Jatho name is a
Slavic place name there may have been some around the Pommeranian area
of Germany, where there are similar -o or -ow place names. If the
Jathos were in the north it might explain why I encounter the name
occasionally in Finland or Denmark.

Mine settled in Charleston SC from 1840-50; seemed to have flourished
there but also migrated to Louisiana, Florida, Illinois and California.
I haven't found many others searching for Jathos, however, and none of
the other decendants of George William and Eliza Jatho so far. I keep
hoping....

----
saki@ucla.edu

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