Christmas vs "Holidays"

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
jsmith

Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av jsmith » 15 des 2004 04:32:01

The secularists have been chipping away at the word Christmas for a number
of years now and are substituting irrelevant (religious ??) concoctions to
diminish the value of the celebration of the birth of Christ. Isn't it time
we begin boycotting those merchants who in their TV advertising are
exploiting the Christmas tradition yet not acknowledging that this is truly
the Christmas season. The code word "holiday" season is coming into
increasing use in an effort to minimize the influence the Truths that were
taught by the Prince of Peace.

Bob Eldred

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Bob Eldred » 15 des 2004 05:22:56

"jsmith" <juddo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:1103081068.f4c58340a6a4fb6c079c5594718575bc@sonicnews...
The secularists have been chipping away at the word Christmas for a number
of years now and are substituting irrelevant (religious ??) concoctions to
diminish the value of the celebration of the birth of Christ. Isn't it
time
we begin boycotting those merchants who in their TV advertising are
exploiting the Christmas tradition yet not acknowledging that this is
truly
the Christmas season. The code word "holiday" season is coming into
increasing use in an effort to minimize the influence the Truths that were
taught by the Prince of Peace.


Get serious. Christians adopted the winter solstice as their own. If you are
a Christian I'm sure you are aware that Christ was born in the spring of the
year not in winter. Things like greenery in buidings, decking halls and
decorating trees predate Christianity but have been adopted by them. Palm
trees would be more appropriate as true Christmas trees as a symbol of the
holy land. Snow and all that goes with it is not Christian either. Northern
tales of elves, reindeer and jolly men in red suits, likewise arn't
Christian. People always adopt local traditions, holidays and pagents as
their own. Get over it and enjoy the holidays for what they are. Remember
there are two s'es in Chri$tma$ and they are both dollar signs! Now go buy
some gifts.
Bob

jsmith

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av jsmith » 15 des 2004 05:33:09

"Bob Eldred" <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:A_Ovd.59856$QJ3.44848@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
"jsmith" <juddo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:1103081068.f4c58340a6a4fb6c079c5594718575bc@sonicnews...
The secularists have been chipping away at the word Christmas for a
number
of years now and are substituting irrelevant (religious ??) concoctions
to
diminish the value of the celebration of the birth of Christ. Isn't it
time
we begin boycotting those merchants who in their TV advertising are
exploiting the Christmas tradition yet not acknowledging that this is
truly
the Christmas season. The code word "holiday" season is coming into
increasing use in an effort to minimize the influence the Truths that
were
taught by the Prince of Peace.


Get serious. Christians adopted the winter solstice as their own. If you
are
a Christian I'm sure you are aware that Christ was born in the spring of
the
year not in winter. Things like greenery in buidings, decking halls and
decorating trees predate Christianity but have been adopted by them. Palm
trees would be more appropriate as true Christmas trees as a symbol of the
holy land. Snow and all that goes with it is not Christian either.
Northern
tales of elves, reindeer and jolly men in red suits, likewise arn't
Christian. People always adopt local traditions, holidays and pagents as
their own. Get over it and enjoy the holidays for what they are. Remember
there are two s'es in Chri$tma$ and they are both dollar signs! Now go buy
some gifts.
Bob


Thanks for your input Bob, and a very Merry Christmas to you !!

A&T

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av A&T » 15 des 2004 05:45:00

We aren't sure when Christ was born, but we celebrate in on December 25.

I wish the people who still believe that Christ was born (whenever it was)
would revolt against the people trying to take it away from us.

Tricia

"jsmith" <juddo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:1103081068.f4c58340a6a4fb6c079c5594718575bc@sonicnews...
The secularists have been chipping away at the word Christmas for a number
of years now and are substituting irrelevant (religious ??) concoctions to
diminish the value of the celebration of the birth of Christ. Isn't it
time
we begin boycotting those merchants who in their TV advertising are
exploiting the Christmas tradition yet not acknowledging that this is
truly
the Christmas season. The code word "holiday" season is coming into
increasing use in an effort to minimize the influence the Truths that were
taught by the Prince of Peace.


Mick Gurling

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Mick Gurling » 15 des 2004 05:50:50

"jsmith" <juddo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:1103081068.f4c58340a6a4fb6c079c5594718575bc@sonicnews...
I think none of this is relevant to Genealogy.

Conversation on ignore.

Ban

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Ban » 15 des 2004 06:29:48

jsmith wrote:

Isn't it time we begin boycotting those merchants who in
their TV advertising are exploiting the Christmas tradition yet not
acknowledging that this is truly the Christmas season. The code word
"holiday" season is coming into increasing use in an effort to
minimize the influence the Truths that were taught by the Prince of
Peace.

The Nazis were writing on the window-shops of Jews:
"Kauft nicht bei Juden".
Go to hell, you will meet your chauvinist friends there.
--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy

Steve Hayes

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Steve Hayes » 15 des 2004 07:11:21

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 22:32:01 -0500, "jsmith" <juddo@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

The secularists have been chipping away at the word Christmas for a number
of years now and are substituting irrelevant (religious ??) concoctions to
diminish the value of the celebration of the birth of Christ. Isn't it time
we begin boycotting those merchants who in their TV advertising are
exploiting the Christmas tradition yet not acknowledging that this is truly
the Christmas season. The code word "holiday" season is coming into
increasing use in an effort to minimize the influence the Truths that were
taught by the Prince of Peace.

Your message was off-topic in all the groups where you posted it.

Stay indoors after the sun comes up, lest you turn to stone.


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (see web page if it doesn't work)
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7783/

John Woodgate

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av John Woodgate » 15 des 2004 08:14:16

I read in sci.electronics.design that wrongaddress@att.net wrote (in
<1103090466.863024.150610@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>) about
'Christmas vs "Holidays"', on Tue, 14 Dec 2004:
People always adopt local traditions, holidays and pagents
as their own. Get over it and enjoy the holidays

So, how come the salvation army bell ringers are not ringing the bell at
Target stores and the local post office this year?

Health and safety at work? I bet the sound levels at the ringers' ears
are way over the OSHA limits (;-)
.
How will we give to the poor if nobody is ringing the bell?

I expect you'll think of a way.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Paul Burke

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Paul Burke » 15 des 2004 09:36:34

jsmith wrote:
The secularists have been chipping away at the word Christmas for a number
of years now and are substituting irrelevant (religious ??) concoctions to
diminish the value of the celebration of the birth of Christ.

Keep your sticky fingers off our Yule. We (humans) were celebrating the
Winter Solstice thousands of years before you traduced the teachings of
Bar Yussuf.

Might be the last one this time though. We can't find any virgins in the
village this year, so the sun might never come back...

Paul Burke

Richard Henry

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Richard Henry » 15 des 2004 10:17:01

"jsmith" <juddo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:1103081068.f4c58340a6a4fb6c079c5594718575bc@sonicnews...
The secularists have been chipping away at the word Christmas for a number
of years now and are substituting irrelevant (religious ??) concoctions to
diminish the value of the celebration of the birth of Christ. Isn't it
time
we begin boycotting those merchants who in their TV advertising are
exploiting the Christmas tradition yet not acknowledging that this is
truly
the Christmas season. The code word "holiday" season is coming into
increasing use in an effort to minimize the influence the Truths that were
taught by the Prince of Peace.

And a Happy Winter Solstice to you!

Or as we learned in high school Latin: Io Saturnalia!

Richard Henry

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Richard Henry » 15 des 2004 10:40:42

"Paul Burke" <paul@scazon.com> wrote in message
news:32abp9F3ikr78U2@individual.net...
jsmith wrote:
The secularists have been chipping away at the word Christmas for a
number
of years now and are substituting irrelevant (religious ??) concoctions
to
diminish the value of the celebration of the birth of Christ.

Keep your sticky fingers off our Yule. We (humans) were celebrating the
Winter Solstice thousands of years before you traduced the teachings of
Bar Yussuf.

Might be the last one this time though. We can't find any virgins in the
village this year, so the sun might never come back...

We had a solar situation at work earlier this month. The building has a
long (over 600 feet), straight corridor on the second floor with glassed-in
stairways on either end. The corridor is aligned slightly south of east to
slightly north of west. On December 3, the rising sun (about 6:40) shone
right through the building from end to end. There was some talk of
sacrificing a virgin tin the coffee-room midway down the corridor; however,
there was doubt expressed that one could be found in the building.

John Woodgate

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av John Woodgate » 15 des 2004 11:20:29

I read in sci.electronics.design that Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com> wrote
(in <32abp9F3ikr78U2@individual.net>) about 'Christmas vs "Holidays"',
on Wed, 15 Dec 2004:

We can't find any virgins in the
village this year, so the sun might never come back...

You have to go to the maternity hospital.

Think about it.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

James A. Doemer

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av James A. Doemer » 15 des 2004 12:21:47

<wrongaddress@att.net> wrote in message
news:1103090466.863024.150610@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
People always adopt local traditions, holidays and pagents
as their own. Get over it and enjoy the holidays

So, how come the salvation army bell ringers are not ringing the bell
at Target stores and the local post office this year?
.
How will we give to the poor if nobody is ringing the bell?

-Bill


There are any number of HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of local, national, and
international charities that cater to the poor. Do a google search.

James A. Doemer

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av James A. Doemer » 15 des 2004 12:25:27

"A&T" <antri@noearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:gjPvd.844$gt3.396@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
We aren't sure when Christ was born, but we celebrate in on December 25.

I wish the people who still believe that Christ was born (whenever it was)
would revolt against the people trying to take it away from us.

Tricia

Only because Constantine arbitrarilly choose that date to compete with a
pre-existing Roman Holiday, Saturnus, or Saturnella.

Jim Thompson

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Jim Thompson » 15 des 2004 15:41:11

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 01:40:42 -0800, "Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com>
wrote:

[snip]
We had a solar situation at work earlier this month. The building has a
long (over 600 feet), straight corridor on the second floor with glassed-in
stairways on either end. The corridor is aligned slightly south of east to
slightly north of west. On December 3, the rising sun (about 6:40) shone
right through the building from end to end. There was some talk of
sacrificing a virgin tin the coffee-room midway down the corridor; however,
there was doubt expressed that one could be found in the building.


ROTFLMAO!

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

John Fields

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av John Fields » 15 des 2004 17:02:53

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 22:32:01 -0500, "jsmith" <juddo@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:

The secularists have been chipping away at the word Christmas for a number
of years now and are substituting irrelevant (religious ??) concoctions to
diminish the value of the celebration of the birth of Christ. Isn't it time
we begin boycotting those merchants who in their TV advertising are
exploiting the Christmas tradition yet not acknowledging that this is truly
the Christmas season. The code word "holiday" season is coming into
increasing use in an effort to minimize the influence the Truths that were
taught by the Prince of Peace.

---
Are you suggesting that we should mete out punishment to those of us
who don't behave in conformance with your wishes and religious
beliefs?

I suggest you take a look at Leviticus 19:18

--
John Fields

Karen Segboer

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Karen Segboer » 15 des 2004 17:13:21

"Mick Gurling" <mickg.SpamTrap@toto.com> wrote:


"jsmith" <juddo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:1103081068.f4c58340a6a4fb6c079c5594718575bc@sonicnews...
I think none of this is relevant to Genealogy.

Not to travel by cruise ship, either.

Karen, posting to only two of the revelent ngs originally on the OP
headers.




__ /7__/7__/7__
\::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.cupcaked.com/reviews
(...and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)

Nicholas O. Lindan

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Nicholas O. Lindan » 15 des 2004 17:19:26

"jsmith" <juddo@ix.netcom.com> wrote

chipping away at ... Christmas ... substituting ... shopping

I am indeed sick of it. If I hear 'Frosty the Snowman' and
or anything else out of tin-pan alley when I go grocery shopping
I will scream. The commercial crud may force me into going to
the Kosher butcher at Christmas.

But, that's what one gets for trying to get a free ride by
tacking Christmas on the back of Winter Solstice. One always
pays in the end. Was Christmas<>Solstice another one of Paul's
idiot ideas or was it Nicea?

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Phyllis

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Phyllis » 15 des 2004 17:44:48

Since December 25th is celebrated as Christmas, those who don't believe
in it or in celebrating it should not accept the day off and the holiday
pay that goes with it.

A&T wrote:
We aren't sure when Christ was born, but we celebrate in on December 25.

I wish the people who still believe that Christ was born (whenever it was)
would revolt against the people trying to take it away from us.

Tricia

"jsmith" <juddo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:1103081068.f4c58340a6a4fb6c079c5594718575bc@sonicnews...

The secularists have been chipping away at the word Christmas for a number
of years now and are substituting irrelevant (religious ??) concoctions to
diminish the value of the celebration of the birth of Christ. Isn't it

time

we begin boycotting those merchants who in their TV advertising are
exploiting the Christmas tradition yet not acknowledging that this is

truly

the Christmas season. The code word "holiday" season is coming into
increasing use in an effort to minimize the influence the Truths that were
taught by the Prince of Peace.





Paul Burke

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Paul Burke » 15 des 2004 17:54:06

Phyllis wrote:
Since December 25th is celebrated as Christmas, those who don't believe
in it or in celebrating it should not accept the day off and the holiday
pay that goes with it.

We'll celebrate what the bloody hell we like, kid. It's been Xmas for
the last 50 years that I know of, Yule logs on sale in the baker's
(thta's an echo of the fire we burned the sacrificed virgin in the days
when we could find them) and I'd like to see you giving up New Year as a
purely Scottish holiday.

Fact 1- Bar Yussuf was NOT born on 25th December 0 AD. For several
reasons I can't be bothered going into here.

Fact 2- If the American Baptists had any honesty to their OWN religious
traditions, they would celebrate Christmas by going to work normally and
avoiding the food and jollity banned by the English Puritan Oliver
Cromwell. Christmas is Arminian (or Roman of course).

Paul Burke

Dirk Bruere at Neopax

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Dirk Bruere at Neopax » 15 des 2004 18:20:26

Paul Burke wrote:

jsmith wrote:

The secularists have been chipping away at the word Christmas for a
number
of years now and are substituting irrelevant (religious ??)
concoctions to
diminish the value of the celebration of the birth of Christ.


Keep your sticky fingers off our Yule. We (humans) were celebrating the
Winter Solstice thousands of years before you traduced the teachings of
Bar Yussuf.

Seconded!
"In the Norse Sagas we are told that boar was eaten at this time of year, and
that it was sworn oaths upon.

"One time Hethin was coming home alone from the forest on Yule eve. He met a
troll woman riding on a wolf, with snakes as reins. She asked his leave to keep
him company, but he would not. She said: "That shalt thou rue when drinking from
the hallowed cup." In the evening vows were made: the sacrificial boar was led
in, men laid their hands on him and sware dear oaths as they drank from the
hallowed cup."

As the boar is sacred to the God Ing (Freyr), it is known that at least one day
of the 12 nights was sacred to him. In addition, Woden played a role in Yule as
the Wild Hunt is said in many of the Norse sagas as well as in English and
Germanic folkore at that time, not to mention his byname in Old Norse of Jólnir."

Hail the Ancient Gods of the N European Peoples!
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org

Dirk Bruere at Neopax

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Dirk Bruere at Neopax » 15 des 2004 18:23:17

Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:

"jsmith" <juddo@ix.netcom.com> wrote


chipping away at ... Christmas ... substituting ... shopping


I am indeed sick of it. If I hear 'Frosty the Snowman' and
or anything else out of tin-pan alley when I go grocery shopping
I will scream. The commercial crud may force me into going to
the Kosher butcher at Christmas.

But, that's what one gets for trying to get a free ride by
tacking Christmas on the back of Winter Solstice. One always
pays in the end. Was Christmas<>Solstice another one of Paul's
idiot ideas or was it Nicea?

Xians don't seem to have any sacred dates of their own so they hijack those of
whatever pagans lands they invade.

Anyone would think that their most sacred time of year, when JC rose from the
dead, would not be named after the Goddess of fertility Oestre with her symbols
the egg and rabbit.

--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org

John Woodgate

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av John Woodgate » 15 des 2004 18:28:38

I read in sci.electronics.design that Phyllis <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-
express.com> wrote (in <41C06A00.2040608@buckeye-express.com>) about
'Christmas vs "Holidays"', on Wed, 15 Dec 2004:

Since December 25th is celebrated as Christmas, those who don't believe
in it or in celebrating it should not accept the day off and the holiday
pay that goes with it.

In Britain, you don't have the option. But when I was employed, my
Japanese colleagues made a point of sending me telexes on December 25,
just to remind me they were working.

I have to admit that now I'm self-employed, I still don't do much work
on December 25; the social pressure is really too strong. But last year,
it was the only day of the holiday that I wasn't working. And of course
I wrote IEC 61000-3-2 over the long Millennium holiday. (;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Rich Grise

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Rich Grise » 15 des 2004 19:06:02

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:23:17 +0000, Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:

Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:

"jsmith" <juddo@ix.netcom.com> wrote


chipping away at ... Christmas ... substituting ... shopping


I am indeed sick of it. If I hear 'Frosty the Snowman' and or anything
else out of tin-pan alley when I go grocery shopping I will scream. The
commercial crud may force me into going to the Kosher butcher at
Christmas.

But, that's what one gets for trying to get a free ride by tacking
Christmas on the back of Winter Solstice. One always pays in the end.
Was Christmas<>Solstice another one of Paul's idiot ideas or was it
Nicea?

Xians don't seem to have any sacred dates of their own so they hijack
those of whatever pagans lands they invade.

Anyone would think that their most sacred time of year, when JC rose from
the dead, would not be named after the Goddess of fertility Oestre with
her symbols the egg and rabbit.

I don't see why not - it's about rebirth and all that.

What I don't get is why they call his execution day "Good" anything!

Cheers!
Rich

Rich Grise

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Rich Grise » 15 des 2004 19:16:15

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 01:17:01 -0800, Richard Henry wrote:

"jsmith" <juddo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:1103081068.f4c58340a6a4fb6c079c5594718575bc@sonicnews...
The secularists have been chipping away at the word Christmas for a
number of years now and are substituting irrelevant (religious ??)
concoctions to diminish the value of the celebration of the birth of
Christ. Isn't it
time
we begin boycotting those merchants who in their TV advertising are
exploiting the Christmas tradition yet not acknowledging that this is
truly
the Christmas season. The code word "holiday" season is coming into
increasing use in an effort to minimize the influence the Truths that
were taught by the Prince of Peace.

And a Happy Winter Solstice to you!

Or as we learned in high school Latin: Io Saturnalia!

When we did that, all of the other kids were saying, "Io Saturn" and I was
the only one who included the "alia." When they all looked at me like I
had just grown a second nose, I said, "Well, on Christmas, you don't go
around saying, "Yay Jesus!"

Cheers!
Rich

John Woodgate

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av John Woodgate » 15 des 2004 19:24:27

I read in sci.electronics.design that Nicholas O. Lindan <see@sig.com>
wrote (in <iuZvd.264$yK.7@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>) about
'Christmas vs "Holidays"', on Wed, 15 Dec 2004:
"jsmith" <juddo@ix.netcom.com> wrote

chipping away at ... Christmas ... substituting ... shopping

I am indeed sick of it. If I hear 'Frosty the Snowman' and
or anything else out of tin-pan alley when I go grocery shopping
I will scream. The commercial crud may force me into going to
the Kosher butcher at Christmas.

But, that's what one gets for trying to get a free ride by
tacking Christmas on the back of Winter Solstice. One always
pays in the end. Was Christmas<>Solstice another one of Paul's
idiot ideas or was it Nicea?


As you might expect, there is a lot of information on the web, some of
it plausible. One account includes:

The Roman Church finally fixed December 25th as the birthday of Jesus
Christ after the great persecution that took place around A.D. 310;
which connects the visitation of the wise men from the East, being
celebrated twelve days later. Though questioned for several generations
by the Eastern Church, the Roman day became universal in the fifth
century.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Rich Grise

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Rich Grise » 15 des 2004 19:34:03

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 04:22:56 +0000, Bob Eldred wrote:

"jsmith" <juddo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:1103081068.f4c58340a6a4fb6c079c5594718575bc@sonicnews...
The secularists have been chipping away at the word Christmas for a
number of years now and are substituting irrelevant (religious ??)
concoctions to diminish the value of the celebration of the birth of
Christ. Isn't it
time
we begin boycotting those merchants who in their TV advertising are
exploiting the Christmas tradition yet not acknowledging that this is
truly
the Christmas season. The code word "holiday" season is coming into
increasing use in an effort to minimize the influence the Truths that
were taught by the Prince of Peace.


Get serious. Christians adopted the winter solstice as their own. If you
are a Christian I'm sure you are aware that Christ was born in the spring
of the year not in winter. Things like greenery in buidings, decking halls
and decorating trees predate Christianity but have been adopted by them.
Palm trees would be more appropriate as true Christmas trees as a symbol
of the holy land. Snow and all that goes with it is not Christian either.
Northern tales of elves, reindeer and jolly men in red suits, likewise
arn't Christian. People always adopt local traditions, holidays and
pagents as their own. Get over it and enjoy the holidays for what they
are. Remember there are two s'es in Chri$tma$ and they are both dollar
signs! Now go buy some gifts.


http://wiw.org/~drz/tom.lehrer/evening.html#christmas

Cheers!
Rich

Chrissy Cruiser

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Chrissy Cruiser » 15 des 2004 19:35:01

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:44:48 -0500, Phyllis wrote:

Since December 25th is celebrated as Christmas, those who don't believe
in it or in celebrating it should not accept the day off and the holiday
pay that goes with it.

LOL This year it's on Saturday but I get your point.

Keith Williams

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Keith Williams » 15 des 2004 19:38:32

In article <41C06A00.2040608@buckeye-express.com>,
phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com says...
Since December 25th is celebrated as Christmas, those who don't believe
in it or in celebrating it should not accept the day off and the holiday
pay that goes with it.

No problem this year or next.... I'm celebrating the 24th and I'll
take my day off and vacation pay then. ;-)

--
Keith

Chrissy Cruiser

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Chrissy Cruiser » 15 des 2004 19:39:10

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:06:02 GMT, Rich Grise wrote:

What I don't get is why they call his execution day "Good" anything!

Becasue it was only bad for Him.

Dillon Pyron

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Dillon Pyron » 15 des 2004 19:54:54

Thus spake Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com> :

Phyllis wrote:
Since December 25th is celebrated as Christmas, those who don't believe
in it or in celebrating it should not accept the day off and the holiday
pay that goes with it.

We'll celebrate what the bloody hell we like, kid. It's been Xmas for
the last 50 years that I know of, Yule logs on sale in the baker's
(thta's an echo of the fire we burned the sacrificed virgin in the days
when we could find them) and I'd like to see you giving up New Year as a
purely Scottish holiday.

Fact 1- Bar Yussuf was NOT born on 25th December 0 AD. For several
reasons I can't be bothered going into here.

Fact 2- If the American Baptists had any honesty to their OWN religious
traditions, they would celebrate Christmas by going to work normally and
avoiding the food and jollity banned by the English Puritan Oliver
Cromwell. Christmas is Arminian (or Roman of course).

There are several Christian sects that, in fact, ignore Christmas but
celebrate Easter as a time of joy. I believe both the Mennonites and
the Amish believe this, as do some Pentacostals.

Paul Burke

--
dillon

"When the French are against it, you know we can't
be far wrong." - Adm. Bobbie Ray Inman

George Leppla

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av George Leppla » 15 des 2004 20:21:39

"Dillon Pyron" <dmpyronINVALID@austin.rr.com> wrote

There are several Christian sects that, in fact, ignore Christmas but
celebrate Easter as a time of joy. I believe both the Mennonites and
the Amish believe this, as do some Pentacostals.

I can't speak for the Pentacostals, but the Amish and Mennonites here in PA
have strong Christmas traditions and celebrations.

http://www.amishnews.com/amisharticles/ ... istmas.htm

The Mennonites tend to be more like mainstream Christians in the way they
celebrate Christmas while the Amish celebrations are more in line with their
usual religious "meetings". The biggest difference is that most Amish sects
do not have churches... meeting to worship in each other's homes on a
rotating basis.

But both definitely celebrate Christmas.


--
George in PA http://www.countryside-travel.com


The Mother of All Group Cruises http://www.motherofallgroupcruises.com
Miracle in May - http://www.cruisemaster.com/miracle.htm
September - Triumph Canada/NE - http://www.cruisemaster.com/carnivalFall.htm
October - Princess Caribbean http://www.cruisemaster.com/caribprin.htm

James A. Doemer

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av James A. Doemer » 15 des 2004 21:57:09

"Dirk Bruere at Neopax" <dirk@neopax.com> wrote in message
news:32ba86F3j8d9rU2@individual.net...
Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:

"jsmith" <juddo@ix.netcom.com> wrote


chipping away at ... Christmas ... substituting ... shopping


I am indeed sick of it. If I hear 'Frosty the Snowman' and
or anything else out of tin-pan alley when I go grocery shopping
I will scream. The commercial crud may force me into going to
the Kosher butcher at Christmas.

But, that's what one gets for trying to get a free ride by
tacking Christmas on the back of Winter Solstice. One always
pays in the end. Was Christmas<>Solstice another one of Paul's
idiot ideas or was it Nicea?


Constantine. Well, more accurately Constantine set Jesus's birthday on
December 25th, to compete with pagan Winter Solstice holidays.

Xians don't seem to have any sacred dates of their own so they hijack
those of
whatever pagans lands they invade.

Anyone would think that their most sacred time of year, when JC rose from
the
dead, would not be named after the Goddess of fertility Oestre with her
symbols
the egg and rabbit.

--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org

James A. Doemer

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av James A. Doemer » 15 des 2004 21:59:41

"Phyllis" <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
news:41C06A00.2040608@buckeye-express.com...
Since December 25th is celebrated as Christmas, those who don't believe
in it or in celebrating it should not accept the day off and the holiday
pay that goes with it.


Nonsense. There are any number of holidays that pre-date Christ that can
and are celibrated by people all over the globe during the winter solstice.
We certainly don't need your christ on a crutch to take a day off or receive
holiday pay.

A&T wrote:
We aren't sure when Christ was born, but we celebrate in on December 25.

I wish the people who still believe that Christ was born (whenever it
was)
would revolt against the people trying to take it away from us.

Tricia

"jsmith" <juddo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:1103081068.f4c58340a6a4fb6c079c5594718575bc@sonicnews...

The secularists have been chipping away at the word Christmas for a
number
of years now and are substituting irrelevant (religious ??) concoctions
to
diminish the value of the celebration of the birth of Christ. Isn't it

time

we begin boycotting those merchants who in their TV advertising are
exploiting the Christmas tradition yet not acknowledging that this is

truly

the Christmas season. The code word "holiday" season is coming into
increasing use in an effort to minimize the influence the Truths that
were
taught by the Prince of Peace.






CLV3

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av CLV3 » 16 des 2004 04:08:30

The code word "holiday" season is coming into
increasing use in an effort to minimize the influence the Truths that were
taught by the Prince of Peace.



I myself was raised catholic yet I do not get offended when people refer to
it as holliday or xmas or whatever. Who cares? Even us Christians have
historically stolen others traditions and shaped it into our own thing. Do
you think the Christmas tree is a Christian idea? Hardly. We have all stolen
ideas, traditions, and beliefs. The important thing is the end result is the
kind of effect that it all has on us as a human race.

CLV3

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av CLV3 » 16 des 2004 04:14:56

Get serious. Christians adopted the winter solstice as their own. If you
are
a Christian I'm sure you are aware that Christ was born in the spring of
the
year not in winter. Things like greenery in buidings, decking halls and
decorating trees predate Christianity but have been adopted by them. Palm
trees would be more appropriate as true Christmas trees as a symbol of the
holy land. Snow and all that goes with it is not Christian either.
Northern
tales of elves, reindeer and jolly men in red suits, likewise arn't
Christian. People always adopt local traditions, holidays and pagents as
their own. Get over it and enjoy the holidays for what they are. Remember
there are two s'es in Chri$tma$ and they are both dollar signs! Now go buy
some gifts.
Bob



Ummm last I knew (and saying this as a Christian but from a purely honest,
realistic and factual standpoint) there are NO documents stating when Christ
was supposedly born. Could be any time..... So it just happens to be
December 25th that we celebrate Christmas but his real birthday could even
have been in June.

Clarence

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Clarence » 16 des 2004 04:36:59

"CLV3" <clvoyer3@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Q47wd.14891$sr2.641@trndny02...
Get serious. Christians adopted the winter solstice as their own. If you
are
a Christian I'm sure you are aware that Christ was born in the spring of
the
year not in winter. Things like greenery in buildings, decking halls and
decorating trees predate Christianity but have been adopted by them. Palm
trees would be more appropriate as true Christmas trees as a symbol of the
holy land. Snow and all that goes with it is not Christian either.
Northern
tales of elves, reindeer and jolly men in red suits, likewise aren't
Christian. People always adopt local traditions, holidays and pageants as
their own. Get over it and enjoy the holidays for what they are. Remember
there are two s'es in Chri$tma$ and they are both dollar signs! Now go buy
some gifts.
Bob

Ummm last I knew (and saying this as a Christian but from a purely honest,
realistic and factual standpoint) there are NO documents stating when Christ
was supposedly born. Could be any time..... So it just happens to be
December 25th that we celebrate Christmas but his real birthday could even
have been in June.

So the Bible doesn't count either. I understand that. But Shepard's in the

fields doesn't sound like the first day of winter either.
BUT; I wasn't there anymore than you were!

Try
http://www.bible.ca/D-Xmas-story.htm
for a discussion on the lack of a date.

CLV3

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av CLV3 » 16 des 2004 04:40:39

"Clarence" <no@No.com> wrote in message
news:vp7wd.43183$6q2.33542@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
"CLV3" <clvoyer3@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Q47wd.14891$sr2.641@trndny02...

Get serious. Christians adopted the winter solstice as their own. If
you
are
a Christian I'm sure you are aware that Christ was born in the spring
of
the
year not in winter. Things like greenery in buildings, decking halls
and
decorating trees predate Christianity but have been adopted by them.
Palm
trees would be more appropriate as true Christmas trees as a symbol of
the
holy land. Snow and all that goes with it is not Christian either.
Northern
tales of elves, reindeer and jolly men in red suits, likewise aren't
Christian. People always adopt local traditions, holidays and pageants
as
their own. Get over it and enjoy the holidays for what they are.
Remember
there are two s'es in Chri$tma$ and they are both dollar signs! Now go
buy
some gifts.
Bob

Ummm last I knew (and saying this as a Christian but from a purely
honest,
realistic and factual standpoint) there are NO documents stating when
Christ
was supposedly born. Could be any time..... So it just happens to be
December 25th that we celebrate Christmas but his real birthday could
even
have been in June.

So the Bible doesn't count either. I understand that. But Shepard's in
the
fields doesn't sound like the first day of winter either.
BUT; I wasn't there anymore than you were!

I don't even think the bible mentiions a date or anything....And I guess it

depends on which one you read too.

Clarence

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Clarence » 16 des 2004 04:44:03

"CLV3" <clvoyer3@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Xs7wd.100$5m3.76@trndny04...
"Clarence" <no@No.com> wrote in message
news:vp7wd.43183$6q2.33542@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...

"CLV3" <clvoyer3@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Q47wd.14891$sr2.641@trndny02...

snip

So the Bible doesn't count either. I understand that. But Shepard's in
the fields doesn't sound like the first day of winter either.
BUT; I wasn't there anymore than you were!

I don't even think the bible mentions a date or anything....And I guess it
depends on which one you read too.



It sure isn't mentioned in Thomas Jefferson's version!

Melissa Warner

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Melissa Warner » 16 des 2004 06:25:26

Staying off topic in a wildly off topic conversation,
"Even us Christians have historically stolen others traditions and shaped it
into our own thing."
Not to shirk responsiblity for traditions, customs, and native lands I
routinely steal, as far as I know Christmas or some form of it has been
celebrated for many, many generations. Many people celebrate it in some form
or meaning. You aren't going to stop it with an off topic post on some
newsgroups, and you aren't going to stop it by boycotting it because you
don't like what Sears calls it. But you're welcome to try. Me, I'm gonna
plug in the lights on my beautiful Christmas tree, give lots of presents to
my family, and be sure to donate generously to the local food shelf, the
Salvation Army, and Toys for Tots.

On a genealogical note, I have noticed quite a few of my New England
ancestors in the eighteenth century got married on December 25. Is that
likely just a family tradition, or does anyone know if that is associated
with a certain church or geographical region?



"CLV3" <clvoyer3@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:O_6wd.1083$JA4.803@trndny09...
The code word "holiday" season is coming into
increasing use in an effort to minimize the influence the Truths that
were
taught by the Prince of Peace.



I myself was raised catholic yet I do not get offended when people refer
to
it as holliday or xmas or whatever. Who cares? Even us Christians have
historically stolen others traditions and shaped it into our own thing. Do
you think the Christmas tree is a Christian idea? Hardly. We have all
stolen
ideas, traditions, and beliefs. The important thing is the end result is
the
kind of effect that it all has on us as a human race.


Carole Allen

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Carole Allen » 16 des 2004 07:19:13

Perhaps they had a visiting minister/parson, and that was one day when
they knew he would be in town. Maybe they had mass weddings (sort of
like the mass Moonie marriages).

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 23:25:26 -0600, "Melissa Warner"
<warnermelissa@comcast.net> wrote:
On a genealogical note, I have noticed quite a few of my New England
ancestors in the eighteenth century got married on December 25. Is that
likely just a family tradition, or does anyone know if that is associated
with a certain church or geographical region?



Kevin Aylward

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Kevin Aylward » 16 des 2004 07:59:39

CLV3 wrote:
Get serious. Christians adopted the winter solstice as their own. If
you are a Christian I'm sure you are aware that Christ was born in
the spring of the year not in winter. Things like greenery in
buidings, decking halls and decorating trees predate Christianity
but have been adopted by them. Palm trees would be more appropriate
as true Christmas trees as a symbol of the holy land. Snow and all
that goes with it is not Christian either.
Northern
tales of elves, reindeer and jolly men in red suits, likewise arn't
Christian. People always adopt local traditions, holidays and
pagents as their own. Get over it and enjoy the holidays for what
they are. Remember there are two s'es in Chri$tma$ and they are both
dollar signs! Now go buy some gifts.
Bob



Ummm last I knew (and saying this as a Christian but from a purely
honest, realistic and factual standpoint) there are NO documents
stating when Christ was supposedly born.

Indeed. Just as there are no documents written during the alleged time
that this alleged Jesus existed, verifying such alleged existence. If I
were a Christian, this would cause me some concern. I'm not, so it
doesn't.


Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

Lyn Nunn

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Lyn Nunn » 16 des 2004 08:19:42

I think it was more likely their one day off and Xmas wasn't the commercial
thing it is today.

On a genealogical note, I have noticed quite a few of my New England
ancestors in the eighteenth century got married on December 25. Is that
likely just a family tradition, or does anyone know if that is associated
with a certain church or geographical region?



"CLV3" <clvoyer3@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:O_6wd.1083$JA4.803@trndny09...
The code word "holiday" season is coming into
increasing use in an effort to minimize the influence the Truths that
were
taught by the Prince of Peace.



I myself was raised catholic yet I do not get offended when people refer
to
it as holliday or xmas or whatever. Who cares? Even us Christians have
historically stolen others traditions and shaped it into our own thing.
Do
you think the Christmas tree is a Christian idea? Hardly. We have all
stolen
ideas, traditions, and beliefs. The important thing is the end result is
the
kind of effect that it all has on us as a human race.




John Woodgate

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av John Woodgate » 16 des 2004 08:19:52

I read in sci.electronics.design that Kevin Aylward
<salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote (in <vnawd.33152$tg2.14745@fe1.news.b
lueyonder.co.uk>) about 'Christmas vs "Holidays"', on Thu, 16 Dec 2004:

Indeed. Just as there are no documents written during the alleged time
that this alleged Jesus existed, verifying such alleged existence. If I
were a Christian, this would cause me some concern. I'm not, so it
doesn't.

Well, there are the Dead Sea Scrolls. Not quite contemporary, but
'within living memory', I believe. Certainly tell a story different from
normal doctrine, but explain some rather cryptic texts in Acts.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

John Woodgate

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av John Woodgate » 16 des 2004 08:22:27

I read in sci.electronics.design that Melissa Warner
<warnermelissa@comcast.net> wrote (in <uaudnfMo-qnUgVzcRVn-
qQ@comcast.com>) about 'Christmas vs "Holidays"', on Wed, 15 Dec 2004:

On a genealogical note, I have noticed quite a few of my New England
ancestors in the eighteenth century got married on December 25. Is that
likely just a family tradition, or does anyone know if that is
associated with a certain church or geographical region?

Many people had only that one opportunity to get an 11-day honeymoon. No
summer holidays if you had the farm to tend.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Paul Burke

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Paul Burke » 16 des 2004 09:25:43

Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:

"In the Norse Sagas we are told that boar was eaten at this time of
year, and that it was sworn oaths upon.

The meat at the Valhalla feast was apparently a magical boar called
Sejm. Eaten every night, it was miraculously renewed the next day. So,
Hrafn, what's for dinner today? Sejm again, Hrothnar.

Paul Burke

Richard Henry

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Richard Henry » 16 des 2004 09:54:40

"John Woodgate" <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote in message
news:Mx5GqRBzeTwBFwNo@jmwa.demon.co.uk...
I read in sci.electronics.design that Melissa Warner
warnermelissa@comcast.net> wrote (in <uaudnfMo-qnUgVzcRVn-
qQ@comcast.com>) about 'Christmas vs "Holidays"', on Wed, 15 Dec 2004:

On a genealogical note, I have noticed quite a few of my New England
ancestors in the eighteenth century got married on December 25. Is that
likely just a family tradition, or does anyone know if that is
associated with a certain church or geographical region?

Many people had only that one opportunity to get an 11-day honeymoon. No
summer holidays if you had the farm to tend.

As long as we're off-topic, let me continue the thread (tenuously) by
talking about my daughter's 6th-grade holiday dance.

When I was a teenager, I was smugly satisfied to know all the words to
"Satisfaction" and what they really meant. Tonight, dancing with my
daughter and her friends as a band of grey-haired, pot-bellied, ex-rockers
covered The Rolling Stones, I was hoping none of the kids would ask me.

I think I'm becoming a Republican.

John Woodgate

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av John Woodgate » 16 des 2004 10:53:21

I read in sci.electronics.design that Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com> wrote
(in <32cvgvF3jn9l5U1@individual.net>) about 'Christmas vs "Holidays"',
on Thu, 16 Dec 2004:
Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:

"In the Norse Sagas we are told that boar was eaten at this time of
year, and that it was sworn oaths upon.

The meat at the Valhalla feast was apparently a magical boar called
Sejm. Eaten every night, it was miraculously renewed the next day. So,
Hrafn, what's for dinner today? Sejm again, Hrothnar.

How unbearably boaring.

--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

John Woodgate

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av John Woodgate » 16 des 2004 10:54:42

I read in sci.electronics.design that Richard Henry <rphenry@home.com>
wrote (in <m3cwd.6601$Sq.5689@fed1read01>) about 'Christmas vs
"Holidays"', on Thu, 16 Dec 2004:

I think I'm becoming a Republican.

You need counselling. (;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Kevin Aylward

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Kevin Aylward » 16 des 2004 10:59:38

John Woodgate wrote:
I read in sci.electronics.design that Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote (in
vnawd.33152$tg2.14745@fe1.news.b lueyonder.co.uk>) about 'Christmas
vs "Holidays"', on Thu, 16 Dec 2004:

Indeed. Just as there are no documents written during the alleged
time that this alleged Jesus existed, verifying such alleged
existence. If I were a Christian, this would cause me some concern.
I'm not, so it doesn't.

Well, there are the Dead Sea Scrolls. Not quite contemporary, but
'within living memory', I believe. Certainly tell a story different
from normal doctrine, but explain some rather cryptic texts in Acts.

The information I have that is accepted even by the church is that it
was some 70 years later before the first written account of Jesus was
made. This essentially means that there is *no* actual evidence that
Jesus existed. Hearsay accounts for nothing in law, for very good
reason.

Since Jesus was supposed to be so famous in his day, its incredible that
no dated written record exists, where as there are other records of that
time that do exist. This was a man who is claimed to be feeding 1000's
and doing miracles, like water into wine. Surely someone would have
recorded it at the time.

My suspicion is that Jesus was probably another Robin Hood figure. i.e.
many dudes all rolled into one, if he even existed at all.

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

James A. Doemer

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av James A. Doemer » 16 des 2004 12:07:23

"CLV3" <clvoyer3@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:O_6wd.1083$JA4.803@trndny09...
The code word "holiday" season is coming into
increasing use in an effort to minimize the influence the Truths that
were
taught by the Prince of Peace.



I myself was raised catholic yet I do not get offended when people refer
to
it as holliday or xmas or whatever. Who cares? Even us Christians have
historically stolen others traditions and shaped it into our own thing. Do
you think the Christmas tree is a Christian idea? Hardly. We have all
stolen
ideas, traditions, and beliefs. The important thing is the end result is
the
kind of effect that it all has on us as a human race.

Just so you know, "Xmas" is not a secular attempt to take Christ out of
Christmas as many contend. X is the Greek symbol denoting Jesus.

James A. Doemer

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av James A. Doemer » 16 des 2004 12:13:23

"CLV3" <clvoyer3@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Q47wd.14891$sr2.641@trndny02...
Get serious. Christians adopted the winter solstice as their own. If you
are
a Christian I'm sure you are aware that Christ was born in the spring of
the
year not in winter. Things like greenery in buidings, decking halls and
decorating trees predate Christianity but have been adopted by them.
Palm
trees would be more appropriate as true Christmas trees as a symbol of
the
holy land. Snow and all that goes with it is not Christian either.
Northern
tales of elves, reindeer and jolly men in red suits, likewise arn't
Christian. People always adopt local traditions, holidays and pagents as
their own. Get over it and enjoy the holidays for what they are.
Remember
there are two s'es in Chri$tma$ and they are both dollar signs! Now go
buy
some gifts.
Bob



Ummm last I knew (and saying this as a Christian but from a purely honest,
realistic and factual standpoint) there are NO documents stating when
Christ
was supposedly born. Could be any time.....

Actually, there are... The Bible itself gives several clues. We know,
for example, that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod. We also know
that Herod died in 4AD. Descriptions of the constellations also put his
birth between 6 AD, and 4 AD. The Bible states that sheperds were tending
their flocks in the fields, this is a spring event, April, or May usually.
By this, we know that he was most probably born in April - May, between 6 AD
and 4 AD.


So it just happens to be
December 25th that we celebrate Christmas but his real birthday could even
have been in June.

This isn't without reason. Constantine wished to choose the Winter
Solstice in order to co-opt the popular Saturnelia holiday in an effort to
draw more people to Christianity in Rome and the rest of Europe.

awnospamj@ev1.net

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av awnospamj@ev1.net » 16 des 2004 12:25:07

"James A. Doemer" <jdjunkmail@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:n5ewd.990$9j5.2@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Actually, there are... The Bible itself gives several clues. We know,
for example, that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod. We also know
that Herod died in 4AD. Descriptions of the constellations also put his
birth between 6 AD, and 4 AD. The Bible states that sheperds were
tending
their flocks in the fields, this is a spring event, April, or May usually.
By this, we know that he was most probably born in April - May, between 6
AD
and 4 AD.
This would be kinda hard since AD from what I understand is "after death".

A.W.


So it just happens to be
December 25th that we celebrate Christmas but his real birthday could
even
have been in June.

This isn't without reason. Constantine wished to choose the Winter
Solstice in order to co-opt the popular Saturnelia holiday in an effort to
draw more people to Christianity in Rome and the rest of Europe.


Donna

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Donna » 16 des 2004 12:36:52

A.W. wrote:
This would be kinda hard since AD from what I understand is "after death".
A.W.


A.D. stands for "anno Domini" --- "year of the Lord" -----It means a year
during the Christian era, after Christ was born.

Donna in Texas

James A. Doemer

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av James A. Doemer » 16 des 2004 12:42:20

awnospamj@ev1.net <figment@ev1.net> wrote:
"James A. Doemer" <jdjunkmail@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:n5ewd.990$9j5.2@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...

Actually, there are... The Bible itself gives several clues. We
know, for example, that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod.
We also know that Herod died in 4AD. Descriptions of the
constellations also put his birth between 6 AD, and 4 AD. The
Bible states that sheperds were tending
their flocks in the fields, this is a spring event, April, or May
usually. By this, we know that he was most probably born in April -
May, between 6 AD
and 4 AD.
This would be kinda hard since AD from what I understand is "after
death". A.W.


I'm sorry... Duh! It's early and I haven't had my cup-o-coffee yet...
:c) Change all the AD's to BC's


So it just happens to be
December 25th that we celebrate Christmas but his real birthday
could even
have been in June.

This isn't without reason. Constantine wished to choose the Winter
Solstice in order to co-opt the popular Saturnelia holiday in an
effort to draw more people to Christianity in Rome and the rest of
Europe.

James A. Doemer

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av James A. Doemer » 16 des 2004 12:43:25

Donna <donna.mr@comcast.net> wrote:
A.W. wrote:
This would be kinda hard since AD from what I understand is "after
death". A.W.


A.D. stands for "anno Domini" --- "year of the Lord" -----It means a
year during the Christian era, after Christ was born.

Donna in Texas

He or she is right though, I did mean "BC".

Paul Burke

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Paul Burke » 16 des 2004 12:59:56

James A. Doemer wrote:

We know,
for example, that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod. We also know
that Herod died in 4AD.

Herod the Great died in 4BC.

Descriptions of the constellations also put his
birth between 6 AD, and 4 AD.

Tough for the story, Yasser bar Yussuf would have been at least 8 then.
Mind you, he could do miracles, so being born again could be one of the
lesser known ones.

Paul Burke

John Woodgate

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av John Woodgate » 16 des 2004 13:28:04

I read in sci.electronics.design that Kevin Aylward
<salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote (in <e0dwd.23171$A6.20301@fe2.news.bl
ueyonder.co.uk>) about 'Christmas vs "Holidays"', on Thu, 16 Dec 2004:

The information I have that is accepted even by the church is that it
was some 70 years later before the first written account of Jesus was
made.

That's what I said, 'within living memory'. Even in those days, some
people lived to a great age.

This essentially means that there is *no* actual evidence that
Jesus existed. Hearsay accounts for nothing in law, for very good
reason.

You can't seriously imagine a religion starting without someone to start
it. If it wasn't Jesus bar Joseph, was it another man of the same name?
Since Jesus was supposed to be so famous in his day, its incredible that
no dated written record exists, where as there are other records of that
time that do exist. This was a man who is claimed to be feeding 1000's
and doing miracles, like water into wine. Surely someone would have
recorded it at the time.

It's rather likely that some of the miracles are not precisely reported.
(;-)
My suspicion is that Jesus was probably another Robin Hood figure. i.e.
many dudes all rolled into one, if he even existed at all.

See above about not existing. Attributing the actions of many to one
person is very common, and the information posted here about Mithras is
relevant.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Pooh Bear

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Pooh Bear » 16 des 2004 13:31:19

jsmith wrote:

The secularists have been chipping away at the word Christmas for a number
of years now and are substituting irrelevant (religious ??) concoctions to
diminish the value of the celebration of the birth of Christ. Isn't it time
we begin boycotting those merchants who in their TV advertising are
exploiting the Christmas tradition yet not acknowledging that this is truly
the Christmas season. The code word "holiday" season is coming into
increasing use in an effort to minimize the influence the Truths that were
taught by the Prince of Peace.

What so-called 'truths' would those be ?

Yuletide came first anyway ! Christianity simply 'adopted' it for its own
purposes.

I dislike the commercialisation of 'Christmas' too though. Anyone with any
sense simply has to refuse to bow to advertising and not make it commercial.


Graham

Kevin Aylward

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Kevin Aylward » 16 des 2004 13:32:37

James A. Doemer wrote:
"CLV3" <clvoyer3@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Q47wd.14891$sr2.641@trndny02...

Get serious. Christians adopted the winter solstice as their own.
If you are a Christian I'm sure you are aware that Christ was born
in the spring of the year not in winter. Things like greenery in
buidings, decking halls and decorating trees predate Christianity
but have been adopted by them.
Palm
trees would be more appropriate as true Christmas trees as a symbol
of the holy land. Snow and all that goes with it is not Christian
either. Northern tales of elves, reindeer and jolly men in red
suits, likewise arn't Christian. People always adopt local
traditions, holidays and pagents as their own. Get over it and
enjoy the holidays for what they are.
Remember
there are two s'es in Chri$tma$ and they are both dollar signs! Now
go buy some gifts.
Bob



Ummm last I knew (and saying this as a Christian but from a purely
honest, realistic and factual standpoint) there are NO documents
stating when Christ was supposedly born. Could be any time.....

Actually, there are... The Bible itself gives several clues.

The Babble was written way after the fact, so its views are worthless.

We
know, for example, that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod.

No we don't. We have an allegation that a man named Jesus was born.

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

John Woodgate

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av John Woodgate » 16 des 2004 13:32:45

I read in sci.electronics.design that James A. Doemer
<jdjunkmail@earthlink.net> wrote (in <L%dwd.982$9j5.443@newsread3.news.p
as.earthlink.net>) about 'Christmas vs "Holidays"', on Thu, 16 Dec 2004:

Just so you know, "Xmas" is not a secular attempt to take Christ out of
Christmas as many contend. X is the Greek symbol denoting Jesus.


Well, not quite; it's 'ch', the first letter of 'XPIEOE', where 'E'

stands for the Greek 'sigma'; (so 'Christos').

--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

James A. Doemer

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av James A. Doemer » 16 des 2004 13:40:00

Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com> wrote:
James A. Doemer wrote:

We know,
for example, that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod. We
also know that Herod died in 4AD.

Herod the Great died in 4BC.

Yep... That's what I meant.


Descriptions of the constellations also put his
birth between 6 AD, and 4 AD.

Tough for the story, Yasser bar Yussuf would have been at least 8
then. Mind you, he could do miracles, so being born again could be
one of the lesser known ones.

Paul Burke

Pooh Bear

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Pooh Bear » 16 des 2004 13:41:15

Phyllis wrote:

Since December 25th is celebrated as Christmas, those who don't believe
in it or in celebrating it should not accept the day off and the holiday
pay that goes with it.

That's a pretty dumb idea !

You only want idiot 'believers' to have free days off ? What about Moslems ( for
example ) living in the West - you want them to work on Christmas too ? Maybe
you'll give them their own holy days off work ?

It's simply a convenience for everyone to take the same period off work.


Graham

Pooh Bear

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Pooh Bear » 16 des 2004 13:43:04

Dillon Pyron wrote:

Thus spake Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com> :

Phyllis wrote:
Since December 25th is celebrated as Christmas, those who don't believe
in it or in celebrating it should not accept the day off and the holiday
pay that goes with it.

We'll celebrate what the bloody hell we like, kid. It's been Xmas for
the last 50 years that I know of, Yule logs on sale in the baker's
(thta's an echo of the fire we burned the sacrificed virgin in the days
when we could find them) and I'd like to see you giving up New Year as a
purely Scottish holiday.

Fact 1- Bar Yussuf was NOT born on 25th December 0 AD. For several
reasons I can't be bothered going into here.

Fact 2- If the American Baptists had any honesty to their OWN religious
traditions, they would celebrate Christmas by going to work normally and
avoiding the food and jollity banned by the English Puritan Oliver
Cromwell. Christmas is Arminian (or Roman of course).

There are several Christian sects that, in fact, ignore Christmas but
celebrate Easter as a time of joy. I believe both the Mennonites and
the Amish believe this, as do some Pentacostals.

The Catholic Church places more emphasis on Easter than Xmas.


Graham

Pooh Bear

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Pooh Bear » 16 des 2004 13:45:55

John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Phyllis <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-
express.com> wrote (in <41C06A00.2040608@buckeye-express.com>) about
'Christmas vs "Holidays"', on Wed, 15 Dec 2004:

Since December 25th is celebrated as Christmas, those who don't believe
in it or in celebrating it should not accept the day off and the holiday
pay that goes with it.

In Britain, you don't have the option. But when I was employed, my
Japanese colleagues made a point of sending me telexes on December 25,
just to remind me they were working.

I have to admit that now I'm self-employed, I still don't do much work
on December 25; the social pressure is really too strong. But last year,
it was the only day of the holiday that I wasn't working. And of course
I wrote IEC 61000-3-2 over the long Millennium holiday. (;-)

IEC 1000-3-2 surely ? The 6 only comes into play as an EN IIRC.

So now I know who to blame ! Never mind the fudge that had to be adopted to
get over the inappropiate use of Class D requirements for 'traditional' PSUs.



Graham

John Woodgate

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av John Woodgate » 16 des 2004 14:08:46

I read in sci.electronics.design that Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelati
ons@hotmail.com> wrote (in <41C1826A.C17BCA48@hotmail.com>) about
'Christmas vs "Holidays"', on Thu, 16 Dec 2004:
What about
Moslems ( for example ) living in the West - you want them to work on
Christmas too ?

Some will be.

Maybe you'll give them their own holy days off work ?

Many already do.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Kevin Aylward

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Kevin Aylward » 16 des 2004 14:56:59

John Woodgate wrote:
I read in sci.electronics.design that Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote (in
e0dwd.23171$A6.20301@fe2.news.bl ueyonder.co.uk>) about 'Christmas
vs "Holidays"', on Thu, 16 Dec 2004:

The information I have that is accepted even by the church is that it
was some 70 years later before the first written account of Jesus was
made.

That's what I said, 'within living memory'. Even in those days, some
people lived to a great age.

This essentially means that there is *no* actual evidence that
Jesus existed. Hearsay accounts for nothing in law, for very good
reason.

You can't seriously imagine a religion starting without someone to
start it. If it wasn't Jesus bar Joseph, was it another man of the
same name?

Well, something needs to start it, but not sure if it was down to one
identifiable man, but one man often gets the credit. For example, the
equations of special relativity are called the Lorentz transformations
because someone got to them before Einstein. Often the ideas are all
there and just come into focus.

Since Jesus was supposed to be so famous in his day, its incredible
that no dated written record exists, where as there are other
records of that time that do exist. This was a man who is claimed to
be feeding 1000's and doing miracles, like water into wine. Surely
someone would have recorded it at the time.

It's rather likely that some of the miracles are not precisely
reported. (;-)

My suspicion is that Jesus was probably another Robin Hood figure.
i.e. many dudes all rolled into one, if he even existed at all.

See above about not existing. Attributing the actions of many to one
person is very common, and the information posted here about Mithras
is relevant.

Frankly, I don't know how anyone can believe in all that religious
twaddle after seeing "The Life of Brian". "oh lord a shoe, it must be a
sign..."

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

Bob Stephens

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Bob Stephens » 16 des 2004 15:26:09

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:25:07 -0600, awnospamj@ev1.net wrote:

This would be kinda hard since AD from what I understand is "after death".
A.W.

nope. "anno domini" - in the year of the lord.

Dave VanHorn

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Dave VanHorn » 16 des 2004 15:38:22

Umm.. FWIW, Christ was almost certainly born in the spring. The winter
"Christmas" is the highjacking of the pagan winter solstice celebration by
early christians, who originally had no holidays or celebrations, and
therefore had a marketing problem vs the other religions of the time.

Dave VanHorn

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Dave VanHorn » 16 des 2004 15:40:38

I am indeed sick of it. If I hear 'Frosty the Snowman' and
or anything else out of tin-pan alley when I go grocery shopping
I will scream. The commercial crud may force me into going to
the Kosher butcher at Christmas.

Feliz navidad is the one that does it for me.
Comes from living in California, where it seems like this one tune gets 50%
of the airtime for a couple months a year.

John Fields

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av John Fields » 16 des 2004 16:26:15

-- Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:40:38 -0500, "Dave VanHorn"
<dvanhorn@dvanhorn.org> wrote:

I am indeed sick of it. If I hear 'Frosty the Snowman' and
or anything else out of tin-pan alley when I go grocery shopping
I will scream. The commercial crud may force me into going to
the Kosher butcher at Christmas.

Feliz navidad is the one that does it for me.
Comes from living in California, where it seems like this one tune gets 50%
of the airtime for a couple months a year.


---
I like Robert Earl Keen's "Merry Christmas From The Family"...

Lyrics here:
http://www.risa.co.uk/sla/index/18/18330.html

For a taste of the tune, go here:
http://www.robertearlkeen.com/Music/Mus ... _Index.htm

then click on the "Gringo Honeymoon" album cover, then click on "Merry
Christmas From The Family"


--
John Fields

Keith Williams

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Keith Williams » 16 des 2004 16:50:26

In article <G8KdnY6zS5XJA1zcRVn-qw@comcast.com>, dvanhorn@dvanhorn.org
says...
I am indeed sick of it. If I hear 'Frosty the Snowman' and
or anything else out of tin-pan alley when I go grocery shopping
I will scream. The commercial crud may force me into going to
the Kosher butcher at Christmas.

Feliz navidad is the one that does it for me.
Comes from living in California, where it seems like this one tune gets 50%
of the airtime for a couple months a year.

It seems to be "Snoopy's Christmas" around here.


I rather like the "Mannheim Steamroller's" Christmas music.

--
Keith

René

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av René » 16 des 2004 17:02:34

I just wanted to comment that this is the first time I've ever seen a
cross-posted topic of this caliber be discussed in a reasonable,
intelligent, and non-attacking manner. Some of the most superficial,
trivial stuff can cause the most heated and hateful postings in so many
other groups.

Must be a lot of adults here. Thanks.

René


"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41C18017.A634B17A@hotmail.com...
jsmith wrote:

The secularists have been chipping away at the word Christmas for a
number
of years now and are substituting irrelevant (religious ??)
concoctions to
diminish the value of the celebration of the birth of Christ. Isn't it
time
we begin boycotting those merchants who in their TV advertising are
exploiting the Christmas tradition yet not acknowledging that this is
truly
the Christmas season. The code word "holiday" season is coming into
increasing use in an effort to minimize the influence the Truths that
were
taught by the Prince of Peace.

What so-called 'truths' would those be ?

Yuletide came first anyway ! Christianity simply 'adopted' it for its
own
purposes.

I dislike the commercialisation of 'Christmas' too though. Anyone with
any
sense simply has to refuse to bow to advertising and not make it
commercial.


Graham


Bob Stephens

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Bob Stephens » 16 des 2004 17:15:54

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:26:15 -0600, John Fields wrote:

-- Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:40:38 -0500, "Dave VanHorn"
dvanhorn@dvanhorn.org> wrote:


I am indeed sick of it. If I hear 'Frosty the Snowman' and
or anything else out of tin-pan alley when I go grocery shopping
I will scream. The commercial crud may force me into going to
the Kosher butcher at Christmas.

Feliz navidad is the one that does it for me.
Comes from living in California, where it seems like this one tune gets 50%
of the airtime for a couple months a year.


---
I like Robert Earl Keen's "Merry Christmas From The Family"...

Lyrics here:
http://www.risa.co.uk/sla/index/18/18330.html

For a taste of the tune, go here:
http://www.robertearlkeen.com/Music/Mus ... _Index.htm

then click on the "Gringo Honeymoon" album cover, then click on "Merry
Christmas From The Family"

I like this one too.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS Y'ALL
(R.E. Keen)
Robert Earl Keen - 1998


There is a Barbie doll in the gravy boat up on mom's TV set
An angel made of Styrofoam holds Rita's cigarette
Santa waves an empty beer in his plastic hand
Everyone is here again, it's Christmastime again

You know the kids are in their sleepin' bags with every kind of toy
And Ken and Kay have hit the hay in dadâs new La-Z-Boy
Fran has got a cozy spot beneath the Christmas tree
Sittin' in his underwear, drunk as he can be

Last night we stuffed our stockings and hung the mistletoe
When Santa Claus came knocking, he looked like Uncle Joe
Someone put the coffee on and find the Tylenol
Merry Christmas everyone, Happy Holidays y'all

Of course old dad got mom a flannel robe and Ken a socket set
Mom got Kay a super value pack of Nicorette
And Kay got Ken a NordicTrack and a new guitar for me
Ken got sister Spanish speaking lessons on CD

Last night we all sang Jingle Bells and opened up our hearts
This morning our house looks like hell or possibly Wal-Mart
Someone clean the gravy boat and dress the Barbie doll
Merry Christmas everyone, Happy Holidays y'all

We're makin' mimosas on the deck and packin' the U-haul
Merry Christmas everyone, God bless us one and all

John Woodgate

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av John Woodgate » 16 des 2004 18:19:48

I read in sci.electronics.design that Kevin Aylward
<salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote (in <Lugwd.24124$A6.8479@fe2.news.blu
eyonder.co.uk>) about 'Christmas vs "Holidays"', on Thu, 16 Dec 2004:

Well, something needs to start it, but not sure if it was down to one
identifiable man, but one man often gets the credit.

I think you can't start a *religion* without a charismatic leader.

Often the ideas are all
there and just come into focus.

That is relevant. The Messiah thing is down to Isaiah, I suppose, but
some of Jesus' teaching, such as about a merciful rather than a vengeful
god, is said to be rather more than hinted at in the writings of the
minor prophets. I find them too boring to study.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Dave VanHorn

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Dave VanHorn » 16 des 2004 19:05:52

Feliz navidad is the one that does it for me.
Comes from living in California, where it seems like this one tune gets
50%
of the airtime for a couple months a year.

It seems to be "Snoopy's Christmas" around here.

I rather like the "Mannheim Steamroller's" Christmas music.

I rather meant that I aggressively dislike "Feliz Navidad", to the point of
wanting to gouge out any speaker cone infected wth it.

Jonathan Kirwan

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Jonathan Kirwan » 16 des 2004 19:55:05

On 16 Dec 2004 06:23:31 -0800, roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

That can't be right. That's 100AD. But a piece of John -- the last
written -- exists ca. 125AD. It can't really be a bit of the original,
or even a close copy: it was probably written around 90AD at the
latest.

No, John was written between about 125AD and 150AD. Pretty much all serious
scholarly analysis places it about there.

The other gospels can't sensibly be dated much later than
70AD, particularly Luke-Acts which ends before Christianity becomes
illegal and Paul killed. Yet Luke records that loads of people have
already written about Jesus, even then.

Actually, Mark is placed at about 75AD and Luke and Matthew are placed at
somewhere from 85AD to 95AD, roughly speaking. John is much later.

The earliest fragments we have of any of these is dated to the 2nd century AD
and is held at the library of Magdalen College in Oxford as three papyrus
fragments from the 26th chapter of Matthew and having partial lines from about
ten scattered verses.

Jon

Jonathan Kirwan

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Jonathan Kirwan » 16 des 2004 20:47:34

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:28:04 +0000, John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

My suspicion is that Jesus was probably another Robin Hood figure. i.e.
many dudes all rolled into one, if he even existed at all.

See above about not existing. Attributing the actions of many to one
person is very common, and the information posted here about Mithras is
relevant.

Paul is the culprit for really "selling" Christianity. He ran around to the
various communities of Christians goading them into giving him goods and cash
and then going to other communities and bragging about how good other
communities were so that they'd feel guilty and pony up for him in some kind of
competition.

You can see this in the two letters to the Corinthians, for example. In the
1st, for example, he tells the Corinthians they should set something aside "on
the first day of each week" as the Galatians are going. hehe. Great system.
Big business. Smart man.

Jon

Dirk Bruere at Neopax

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Dirk Bruere at Neopax » 16 des 2004 22:40:56

Paul Burke wrote:

Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:

"In the Norse Sagas we are told that boar was eaten at this time of
year, and that it was sworn oaths upon.


The meat at the Valhalla feast was apparently a magical boar called
Sejm. Eaten every night, it was miraculously renewed the next day. So,
Hrafn, what's for dinner today? Sejm again, Hrothnar.

Sejm Sejm Sejm Sejm ... Sejm Sejm Sejm Sejm etc

--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org

CLV3

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av CLV3 » 17 des 2004 00:58:36

"James A. Doemer" <jdjunkmail@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:xxewd.697$RH4.135@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Donna <donna.mr@comcast.net> wrote:
A.W. wrote:
This would be kinda hard since AD from what I understand is "after
death". A.W.


A.D. stands for "anno Domini" --- "year of the Lord" -----It means a
year during the Christian era, after Christ was born.

Donna in Texas

He or she is right though, I did mean "BC".



Which means Before Christ....hehehe so how could Christ be born BC????

CLV3

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av CLV3 » 17 des 2004 01:02:07

"Phyllis" <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
news:41C06A00.2040608@buckeye-express.com...
Since December 25th is celebrated as Christmas, those who don't believe
in it or in celebrating it should not accept the day off and the holiday
pay that goes with it.


Shoot...... Even if I WASN'T Christian I would gladly accept a day off or a
bonus to my paycheck.... Hey....why can't we create a Buddha day? I am not
Buddhist but I am all for the benefits of another holliday!

clint

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av clint » 17 des 2004 02:02:02

Isn't this usual seasonal crap, a bit OT?
"CLV3" <clvoyer3@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3mpwd.2971$JA4.1619@trndny09...
"Phyllis" <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
news:41C06A00.2040608@buckeye-express.com...
Since December 25th is celebrated as Christmas, those who don't believe
in it or in celebrating it should not accept the day off and the holiday
pay that goes with it.


Shoot...... Even if I WASN'T Christian I would gladly accept a day off or
a
bonus to my paycheck.... Hey....why can't we create a Buddha day? I am not
Buddhist but I am all for the benefits of another holliday!


John Fields

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av John Fields » 17 des 2004 02:08:07

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 20:02:02 -0500, "clint" <bocarsm@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Isn't this usual seasonal crap, a bit OT?

---
Around here??? LOL!

--
John Fields

James A. Doemer

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av James A. Doemer » 17 des 2004 03:02:53

"CLV3" <clvoyer3@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Mipwd.6328$eO5.6208@trndny08...
"James A. Doemer" <jdjunkmail@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:xxewd.697$RH4.135@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Donna <donna.mr@comcast.net> wrote:
A.W. wrote:
This would be kinda hard since AD from what I understand is "after
death". A.W.


A.D. stands for "anno Domini" --- "year of the Lord" -----It means a
year during the Christian era, after Christ was born.

Donna in Texas

He or she is right though, I did mean "BC".



Which means Before Christ....hehehe so how could Christ be born BC????




The year was set after he was born. It was an arbitrary date with no real
research involved. Basically, Constantine did the equivalent of putting a
calendar on the wall and tossing a dart at it. It was a guesstimate at
best.

Rich Grise

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Rich Grise » 17 des 2004 03:59:20

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:05:52 -0500, Dave VanHorn wrote:

Feliz navidad is the one that does it for me.
Comes from living in California, where it seems like this one tune gets
50%
of the airtime for a couple months a year.

It seems to be "Snoopy's Christmas" around here.

I rather like the "Mannheim Steamroller's" Christmas music.

I rather meant that I aggressively dislike "Feliz Navidad", to the point of
wanting to gouge out any speaker cone infected wth it.

At least it purports to be "music" and it does, arguably, have a tune. I
walked out of Staples the other day, because they had hip-hop/rap on the
Muzak. I told them, on the way out, that I wasn't going to buy anything
there again until they got rid of the racist hate noise on the Muzak.

Maybe they were giving "kwanzaa" equal time or some such BS.

Thanks!
Rich

Rich Grise

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Rich Grise » 17 des 2004 04:00:42

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 00:02:07 +0000, CLV3 wrote:

"Phyllis" <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
news:41C06A00.2040608@buckeye-express.com...
Since December 25th is celebrated as Christmas, those who don't believe
in it or in celebrating it should not accept the day off and the holiday
pay that goes with it.


Shoot...... Even if I WASN'T Christian I would gladly accept a day off or a
bonus to my paycheck.... Hey....why can't we create a Buddha day? I am not
Buddhist but I am all for the benefits of another holliday!

Give it a few years - let the republicans get inured to kwanzaa first. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

Richard The Troll

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Richard The Troll » 17 des 2004 04:01:36

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:08:07 -0600, John Fields wrote:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 20:02:02 -0500, "clint" <bocarsm@hotmail.com
wrote:

Isn't this usual seasonal crap, a bit OT?

---
Around here??? LOL!

Yeah - Mensa, but interesting!

;^j
Rich

Rich The Philosophizer

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Rich The Philosophizer » 17 des 2004 04:04:22

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:19:48 +0000, John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote (in <Lugwd.24124$A6.8479@fe2.news.blu
eyonder.co.uk>) about 'Christmas vs "Holidays"', on Thu, 16 Dec 2004:

Well, something needs to start it, but not sure if it was down to one
identifiable man, but one man often gets the credit.

I think you can't start a *religion* without a charismatic leader.

Often the ideas are all
there and just come into focus.

That is relevant. The Messiah thing is down to Isaiah, I suppose, but
some of Jesus' teaching, such as about a merciful rather than a vengeful
god, is said to be rather more than hinted at in the writings of the
minor prophets. I find them too boring to study.

If you really want to "study," I'd really like to find somebody who's got
the cojones to go to http://www.godchannel.com and actually _read_ the
damn thing, and debunk it!

Thanks,
Rich



Rich Grise

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Rich Grise » 17 des 2004 06:27:02

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 22:31:07 -0500, jsmith wrote:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1217/p09s01-coop.htm

They let Atheists write for the Christian Science Monitor?

Cool!

Happy Solstice!
Rich

Rich Grise

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Rich Grise » 17 des 2004 06:29:42

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:57:44 -0800, wrongaddress wrote:

John Woodgate wrote:

So, how come the salvation army bell ringers are not
ringing the bell at Target stores and the local post
office this year?

Health and safety at work? I bet the sound levels at
the ringers' ears are way over the OSHA limits (;-)

It's more likely the threat of litigation from other competing
charities that banned the bell ringers.

In a statement on its Web site, Target said it banned the bell ringers
because not doing so would open the door to the growing number of other
nonprofits that want to solicit its shoppers.

But so what? Target is a private corporation owned by the stockholders.
They don't have to cave into pressure from competing charities. Maybe
it's just a PR thing, and they think sales will be better if they ban
the salvation army?


I believe this comes under the category "The squeaky wheel gets the grease."

Live Long and Prosper!
Rich

Paul Burke

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Paul Burke » 17 des 2004 09:52:36

James A. Doemer wrote:

The year was set after he was born. It was an arbitrary date with no real
research involved. Basically, Constantine did the equivalent of putting a
calendar on the wall and tossing a dart at it. It was a guesstimate at
best.

It was done by a 6th Century monk, Dionysius Exiguus, about 200 years
after Constantine. Previously, dates had been the nth year of the
Emperor Josephus Bloggus or the 3rd Consulate of Biggus Dickus etc. The
year count since the founding of Rome- AUC- was not generally used.
Dionysius went back through the records, added up the years, and came up
with a number of years since the supposed birth of Jesus. Since zero
hadn't entered the maths of the age, he went straight from 1BC to 1AD.
Bede of Jarrow was one on the earliest historians to use this system.

Paul Burke

Kevin Aylward

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Kevin Aylward » 17 des 2004 10:04:13

Rich The Philosophizer wrote:
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:19:48 +0000, John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote (in
Lugwd.24124$A6.8479@fe2.news.blu eyonder.co.uk>) about 'Christmas
vs "Holidays"', on Thu, 16 Dec 2004:

Well, something needs to start it, but not sure if it was down to
one identifiable man, but one man often gets the credit.

I think you can't start a *religion* without a charismatic leader.

Often the ideas are all
there and just come into focus.

That is relevant. The Messiah thing is down to Isaiah, I suppose, but
some of Jesus' teaching, such as about a merciful rather than a
vengeful god, is said to be rather more than hinted at in the
writings of the minor prophets. I find them too boring to study.

If you really want to "study," I'd really like to find somebody who's
got the cojones to go to http://www.godchannel.com and actually
_read_ the damn thing, and debunk it!


Its already been debunked. http://www.evilbible.com


Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

John Woodgate

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av John Woodgate » 17 des 2004 11:51:42

I read in sci.electronics.design that roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk wrote (in
<1103279102.719892.247730@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>) about
'Christmas vs "Holidays"', on Fri, 17 Dec 2004:

You'd better let Bruce Metzger know. His "Text of the New Testament" --
the standard undergraduate handbook -- says different. The date you
give has been impossible since 1936.

If the cited dates are not correct, they have been not correct since the
words were written or the later of the cited dates, whichever is later.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

James A. Doemer

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av James A. Doemer » 17 des 2004 12:26:55

"Paul Burke" <paul@scazon.com> wrote in message
news:32flfdF3m7njpU1@individual.net...
James A. Doemer wrote:

The year was set after he was born. It was an arbitrary date with no
real
research involved. Basically, Constantine did the equivalent of putting
a
calendar on the wall and tossing a dart at it. It was a guesstimate at
best.

It was done by a 6th Century monk, Dionysius Exiguus, about 200 years
after Constantine. Previously, dates had been the nth year of the
Emperor Josephus Bloggus or the 3rd Consulate of Biggus Dickus etc. The
year count since the founding of Rome- AUC- was not generally used.
Dionysius went back through the records, added up the years, and came up
with a number of years since the supposed birth of Jesus. Since zero
hadn't entered the maths of the age, he went straight from 1BC to 1AD.
Bede of Jarrow was one on the earliest historians to use this system.

Paul Burke

Yep... Dennis the Short was off by as much as six years. Biggus Dickus...
That cracks me up.

James A. Doemer

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av James A. Doemer » 17 des 2004 12:31:02

<wrongaddress@att.net> wrote in message
news:1103252264.683199.22530@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
John Woodgate wrote:

So, how come the salvation army bell ringers are not
ringing the bell at Target stores and the local post
office this year?

Health and safety at work? I bet the sound levels at
the ringers' ears are way over the OSHA limits (;-)

It's more likely the threat of litigation from other competing
charities that banned the bell ringers.

In a statement on its Web site, Target said it banned the bell ringers
because not doing so would open the door to the growing number of other
nonprofits that want to solicit its shoppers.

But so what? Target is a private corporation owned by the stockholders.
They don't have to cave into pressure from competing charities. Maybe
it's just a PR thing, and they think sales will be better if they ban
the salvation army?

-Bill


I'm personally happy to see them gone. In years past, they would stand to
the side of the doors and ring there bells, there would be one of them. In
recent years they've gotten much bolder, and are right in front of the doors
which means you have to walk around them, and there are two, sometimes three
of them. They've simply become a nusiance in my opinion.

f/f george

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av f/f george » 17 des 2004 14:10:26

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:31:04 GMT, "James A. Doemer"
<jdjunkmail@earthlink.net> wrote:

wrongaddress@att.net> wrote in message
news:1103252264.683199.22530@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
John Woodgate wrote:

So, how come the salvation army bell ringers are not
ringing the bell at Target stores and the local post
office this year?

Health and safety at work? I bet the sound levels at
the ringers' ears are way over the OSHA limits (;-)

It's more likely the threat of litigation from other competing
charities that banned the bell ringers.

In a statement on its Web site, Target said it banned the bell ringers
because not doing so would open the door to the growing number of other
nonprofits that want to solicit its shoppers.

But so what? Target is a private corporation owned by the stockholders.
They don't have to cave into pressure from competing charities. Maybe
it's just a PR thing, and they think sales will be better if they ban
the salvation army?

-Bill


I'm personally happy to see them gone. In years past, they would stand to
the side of the doors and ring there bells, there would be one of them. In
recent years they've gotten much bolder, and are right in front of the doors
which means you have to walk around them, and there are two, sometimes three
of them. They've simply become a nusiance in my opinion.

I agree that when they get bothersome they are a pain, BUT when they

are out of the way, I do not mind them. I even give what I can, when I
can. Those that are in the way always get nothing, those that are
"next" to the door, I contribute to.

Kevin Aylward

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av Kevin Aylward » 17 des 2004 14:26:15

roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
On 16 Dec 2004 06:23:31 -0800, roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

That can't be right. That's 100AD. But a piece of John -- the last
written -- exists ca. 125AD. It can't really be a bit of the
original, or even a close copy: it was probably written around 90AD
at the latest.

No, John was written between about 125AD and 150AD. Pretty much all
serious scholarly analysis places it about there.

You'd better let Bruce Metzger know. His "Text of the New Testament"
-- the standard undergraduate handbook -- says different. The date
you give has been impossible since 1936.

The other gospels can't sensibly be dated much later than
70AD, particularly Luke-Acts which ends before Christianity becomes
illegal and Paul killed. Yet Luke records that loads of people have
already written about Jesus, even then.

Actually, Mark is placed at about 75AD and Luke and Matthew are
placed at
somewhere from 85AD to 95AD, roughly speaking. John is much later.

Luke cannot be sensibly dated later than about 64AD. It doesn't
mention Paul's death, you see.

So what. This is faulty logic. So, Paul (if he existed) died, and no one
noticed. Most/All of the Babble is pure nonsense, so the lack of certain
information in it means diddly squat.

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

John Woodgate

Re: Christmas vs "Holidays"

Legg inn av John Woodgate » 17 des 2004 14:42:45

I read in sci.electronics.design that Kevin Aylward
<salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote (in <X7Bwd.738$Qo4.124@fe1.news.bluey
onder.co.uk>) about 'Christmas vs "Holidays"', on Fri, 17 Dec 2004:

So, Paul (if he existed) died, and no one
noticed.

There IS reliable independent evidence that Paul existed.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Svar

Gå tilbake til «alt.genealogy»